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bob-hepple

Are Stereolithography Printer any good

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Hi All

some of the post Ive put up have to do with 1 print and 1 print only I attended the London print show and spoke to one of the Um Gurus, I showed him my print and I still can't get it right, I changed software (sm3d) and the same problem shows up leading me to question my choice of Technologies. I have been looking around and have come up with Stereolithography Printer's has anyone got any experience with these if i can't get the deign right on this project, my next one has no chance as it will be a very fine mesh printed over a sphere which I think will need a Dissolvable support, which is not available on Um2 (obviously) which would be very useful on my current design project too.

Any how have al ook below and give me all your thoughts good and bad please..

Sm3d

Screen Print

look at the bend Im sure this is not being closed

look at the print

Sm3d2

 

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I don't have any direct experience with those types of printers so I'll just comment on your object. It looks like you have a simple overhang issue there. You've used a fillet for the bottom edge which produces an overhang that is difficult to print. Look at the picture here to see what I mean and a possible way to help get around it:

http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/30-getting-better-prints#chamfers

 

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iRobert

thank you for taking the time to input your thoughts I will try your suggestion and modify the drawing I found this to be a positive input. .

Do you think I should leave the bed heated or not I have tried both but with no better results. Just some say turn bed off and print on tape, I know its a bit naff but as an experiment I printed on heated bed 60deg and then covered the bed where the over hang was to reduce the uplift of heat and with an extra fan on it.

Fan Unit

 

 

Thanks

 

Bob

 

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I don't know if stereo-lithography printers will provide a different result it that specific case. From the results I seen, they have mostly the same overhang challenges but I don't know how much the previous layer will impact the next one like FDM.

 

If you have good adhesion glue stick or spray you could probably reduce the bed temp without tape. I'm pretty impressed with 3DLac so far.

Super thin, lots of overhang, very height...

IMG 20141006 175108

IMG 20141006 175120

 

That one failed... :D because it had no support at all in the back.

Fail

 

For the overhang try printing cold and slow. If this is PLA you could try at 190-200C at 20-30mm/s. The first few layers are pretty challenging. Also the skirt seems to get into the way. Try spacing it further away in the expert settings so it cant touch the other subsequent layers.

 

A "cheat" you could try is print a piece that will be used a support that you will print alone and place only when you will start to need it. That already sound like a bad plan but it could work in some cases. :D

 

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You will probably get very similar results using stereo-lithography printers too.

Out of curiosity Bob, assuming that the part is hollow, have you tried printing with this surface face down on the bed? The angle of the walls should print OK. Maybe a small amount of support on the lowest short wall.

If you upload the part somewhere I don't mind having a go at printing for you too.

Bob Hepple

 

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Skint & pm_Dude

thanks for your input yes I have tried printing this flat strait down, when I was using Cura it wanted to put supports everywhere and put the print time up to 10hrs, so I persevered with it flat on the deck and used Simplify3d which has the time down to 2-45min granted there is problem but i think I am going to try iRoberts suggestion of changing the profile i am still gonna print on heated bed at 60 and the print temp was 190 and 200 with fans on full layer ht is .10 and .20, I have had all these setting before it will be the profile change I think that will make the difference, the technology is not quiet there yet the design called for a rad but the print limitations can't do it so design changes.

Pm Dud I agreed the brim is in the way i only used it to make sure that everything was primed and ready to go if the brim was not printing correctly I aborted.

Don't mind you tying just don't know how to get the file to you..

Thanks again for your input I am trying to get a demo of the Stereo printer and check that time = overhang issues are not too bad I am looking at the Formlabs +1 printer at the moment but they are not that good at answering questions its like they don't want the sale.

after this is over Im looking also at using wood file for another project and I'm wandering if the UM2 will cope with that..

Bob

 

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Colorfabb Woodfill Fine works well on UM2. I noticed it was clogging all the time for me if I was printing too slow.

I print 0.2mm at 50mm/s. I did print 0.1mm at 100mm/s successfully but that was just to test.

You can share the file on youmagine, email, dropbox,...

I'm really wondering how it would work to do a very thin support printed first in another material and then print the real thing while leaving it the support already in place. I'm thinking solvable filament which I don't have or Nylon for support but mine is not printing anymore :(

 

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well, to comment on your heading "are SLA printers any good"

I ordered a sample from Form1+ labs. The precision and level of detail is amazing. I don't know if these guys hand pick these samples, or print them on something else, but if the Form 1+ prints like this, then I'll be adding one to my 3D printer collection for sure.

 

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Solid

I seen this machine at London 3d print show originally I have looked into the company and they do get a good rep, I have read a few review of the printer and they are all good, from my point of view I am wanting to know print time as the printer resolutions I think starts at 100 microns any goes down to 20 microns at this level of detail the time has to go up and I would expect sharply, I have sent my file to them for a quotation on time (top picture) I have downloaded there software and will be looking at this later today,

if you are interested i will post the times when I get a reply,

I am finding it difficult to talk to the company it is only via email but I am seriously thinking of getting a machine, like seriously. I use My Um2 in my workshop that is in the house and a thought of +1 smelling the house out is a little concerning though..

Thoughts???

Bob

 

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I talked to the salesman, Jon Bryant, on the phone. He tells me the chess piece took 1 hour to print, and costs $1.45 in resin to print it. That's actually faster than the Ultimaker at that resolution, but more expensive too. It's pretty reasonable all the way around. I'm sold, and I think it will make a nice addition to the UM2's.

 

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I seen the flower at MakerFaire made with the Form1+. Quality was pretty good.

To me it feels like a Makerbot printer. You have a great printer and you can print only one type of material with it...

Its a detail but the salesman is in conflict with what the website says. 77 chest pieces for a 1L bottle at 149$ = 1.93$/piece without taxes and shipping.

 

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I might have misquoted him. They sent me the new chess piece they have with the DNA helix in it. Might be the new chess piece uses less material?

Either way, it's still not bad. It's not for bulk work, so you're not going through a bottle a day. Besides, there are places you can buy photo curing resins for cheaper.

 

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I downloaded there software which looks ok depends on how it works out. The item above at 0.10 resolution is being quoted at 2-45 min, now that's fine it only goes up by 30 mins if I put supports everywhere that's still faster than I can get now 2-50 with simply35 and in cura with supports 5hrs I have problems with the print I also have to take some of the internals out as they won't print at all, horizontal holes accurately need to be positiond, if the printer will do that as well I think it's a purchase soon. I have not had any replies from the uk sales office, that might be the lweek link little to no support...

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I really like the Form 1+ concept, but I am missing crucial technical details about the printed material.

Has anyone seen specifications of the type of plastic, the maximum operating temperature of printed objects and the strength compared to ABS or PLA?

This is kind of necessary information if you want to print parts for engineering applications.

 

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I really like the Form 1+ concept, but I am missing crucial technical details about the printed material.

Has anyone seen specifications of the type of plastic, the maximum operating temperature of printed objects and the strength compared to ABS or PLA?

This is kind of necessary information if you want to print parts for engineering applications.

 

Ive got a couple of samples in my hands right now of the chess pieces. I would say the plastic is very durable. It doesn't scratch with my fingernail, is very firm, with a hint of flexibility as the parts get thinner. I will see how it does when placing in boiling water.

It basically reminds me of cured fiberglass resin (depending on your hardener ratio). I'd say a little on the softer side of fiberglass resin, not glass hard, but very hard yet slightly flexible. There is no flex whatsoever at the base where it is thickest.

I know this is not scientific, but at least you may get a sense of the clear resin the sample is printed in.

 

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We have a Form+ here at the company and it does give prints in good quality for the price of the printer (we also have industrial SLA printers) and does clear objects pretty well, which is always a problem with 3D printing.

The major trouble for us is supports - it prints them really densely and it's very hard to get them removed without damageing the surface. At the moment I'm printing objects that require a great surface finish and the quality where the supports are placed is just not good enough for this project.

All in all a good printer for the price but expect some support trouble.

 

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I am Disappointed to hear that about the Supports I thought there would be something to hold it back BUT I have tried to get information from the Sales Office in the UK and at the moment I am being Fobbed Off with they can't open the file then they can then Ill be put on a waiting list and a sample of my design sent to me, in turn which means i'm on a waiting list. Thats very vague and its even more strange is they don't have my delivery address, I said earlier the fly in the ointment might be there support (no Pun Intended) but if you can't speak with the sales and they don't seem bothered in returning e-mails and phone calls you can't get very far. in a word DISAPPOINTED.

 

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Thank you CecilieVF, that was most of the information I was looking for!

I would still like to know more about the type of plastic, like which of the common solvents it can handle, UV-resistance, aging and so on. But I guess Formlabs is not going to tell us exactly what kind of polymer they are using.

About the supports, how much overhang (in degrees) can you print approximately before you need supports?

Printing objects which are truly transparent is interesting in fact, I have to look more into this.

 

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That's really bad customer service right there Bob! I wasn't the one dealing with them directly so sadly I haven't got any experience with them.

Anders - The objects are not 100% transparent, but they're pretty damn good though! The SLA printers all use a UV cured resin and is a thermoset, it doesn't get soft and melt the same way that ABS for example does. I know most SLA materials are stable up to aroung 200 degrees Celsius but I'm not sure about the exact value for the Form+. UV resistance is no good as the material is cures by UV light it will also respond to prolonged sunlight. I would not use any SLA material outside!

As for the supports. I have not been able to print any overhangs well without supports and I sadly don't have an angle for you. The part I'm fighting with should ideally have a 90 degrees overhang and it's just no good so far. But I'm impressed with the quality and resolution of prints of a SLA printer for that price.

 

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Have you taken a look at the Kudo3D Titan1 printer? It surpases Form1 Speed, size and quality and at cheaper price. The gallery they have at their site is pretty impressive.

They use a DLP projector instead of laser. Resin is not the same though. I believe DLP printers have some issues with clear resins, if this is a concern to you.

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Thanks for that I will check them out I have spoken to form reseller in the uk (again) I don't think it's good really they don't list the printer on there web sight no prices no information and a three week lead time, I'm still waiting for the sample. Apparently I'm close to the top of there waiting list as I am "persistent and consistent" don't know if that's a compliment or not?.

Will look at your suggestion later I am not interested in clear but flexible could be interesting as form labs just released some.

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AT Last a Sample I sent the uk agent my file (the one I can't get right) and I received it today YippYYY well not really the surface finish is excellent and the number of supports is abundant and easily removed the down side is I thought the rest would be hard. is you look at the pic of the UM2 print and the Form Labs side by side it is warped and the internal measurements are seriously out 1.5mm the two post that hold a pump in to situ are warped NO GOOD for me I need mechanical accuracy..

Form Labs

Um2 and Form labs

 

there is a new Kid on the block

 

The Zinter Pro will have a look at that

 

http://www.ioncoretechnology.com/zinter/zinter-pro/

 

 

any thoughts

 

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