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Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

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Posted (edited) · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

Hi I have Ultimaker S5 about 2-3 months, had no issues with it until yesterday. I used PLA/Tough PLA/ABS on print core 1 and PVA Natural on print core 2. 

Mostly I've been printing small things that would not take more than 3-4 hours, have printed 2-3 big ones that took 15-20 hours.

Yesterday I was printing and noticed that nozzle stopped extruding filament. I made a little bit of research and found that both of my knurled wheels of the feeders have dug in to the filament.

I read that I need to release feeder tension by hex key int the hole on top of the feeder and turning it clockwise so I did, I released tension as much as I could but it did not help it actually had no effect.

If you have any ideas what must be done please HELP ME.

P.S. I did clean print cores with hot and cold pull. Nozzles are not clogged.

Grinding.jpg

Edited by Vasadze

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

To check if really everything is fine with your nozzles, heat up the print cores, open the lever on the feeder and load the filament manually. Then push gently the filament forward to extrude some material. If it works, you have a problem with the feeder, if not, you should check the Bowden tube and the print cores again.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
14 minutes ago, Smithy said:

To check if really everything is fine with your nozzles, heat up the print cores, open the leaver on the feeder and load the filament manually. Then push gently the filament forward to extrude some material. If it works, you have a problem with the feeder, if not, you should check the Bowden tube and the print cores again.

Did it just now material was extruding without me using any force just gentle push.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

Ok, then the problem must be somewhere around your feeder or the spool holder. I don't believe that both feeders have a problem, so maybe your filament was tangled somehow? Do you use the spool holder on the back and do you use also the filament guide?

 

And do you have disabled the filament sensor? Because normally your printer should pause the print if the filament cannot be transported as needed.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

The sensor is ignored on the first layer so if this is happening on the first layer the sensor is irrelevant.

 

First of all don't loosen the feeder.  That makes it more likely for the filament to slip and therefore grind flat.  Only loosen it for delicate filaments.  pla, abs, tough pla should all be fine at the midpoint of tension.

 

So the most likely problems:

1) Printing too cold/too fast.  If you have pushed the speeds over defaults (which is a good idea in general) you may have pushed too far.  Or if you lowered the default temperature.  At typical printing speeds the feeder is pushing at 3kg to 6kg force but if you go higher than 6kg then you get too much slipping.  Or if you increased the flow rate (did you mess with the flow rate?).  Flow rates over 110% are likely to cause problems like this.

2) too many retractions.  Some prints have hundreds of retractions within just 1 or 2 minutes of printing.  If the same spot of filament goes backwards and forwards through the feeder 10 times it's fine but 20 times is enough to sometimes cause this flattening.  40 times will almost guarantee this flattening.  Look at the layer that failed in layer view in cura.  There are 2 colors for non-printing moves: light blue and dark blue.  I forget which one is retracting move but if you have more than other models that were fine then this may be the problem.  You can tell cura to retract less.   Do this by setting "maximum retration count" to 10 and "minimum extrusion distance" to your retraction distance (4.5mm for UM2 and 6.5 for UM3 and 8mm for S5).

3) Clogs/jams - extra material can get in the bowden and cause a jam but you already tested for this so I don't think this is the issue anymore but may have been the issue once.

4) Tangles

 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
On 1/25/2019 at 5:38 PM, Smithy said:

Ok, then the problem must be somewhere around your feeder or the spool holder. I don't believe that both feeders have a problem, so maybe your filament was tangled somehow? Do you use the spool holder on the back and do you use also the filament guide?

 

And do you have disabled the filament sensor? Because normally your printer should pause the print if the filament cannot be transported as needed.

Filament is not tangled yes I use Spool holder on the back. what is filament guide? and how do I disable filament sensor? I dont know.

 

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Posted (edited) · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
On 1/26/2019 at 5:29 PM, gr5 said:

The sensor is ignored on the first layer so if this is happening on the first layer the sensor is irrelevant.

 

First of all don't loosen the feeder.  That makes it more likely for the filament to slip and therefore grind flat.  Only loosen it for delicate filaments.  pla, abs, tough pla should all be fine at the midpoint of tension.

 

So the most likely problems:

1) Printing too cold/too fast.  If you have pushed the speeds over defaults (which is a good idea in general) you may have pushed too far.  Or if you lowered the default temperature.  At typical printing speeds the feeder is pushing at 3kg to 6kg force but if you go higher than 6kg then you get too much slipping.  Or if you increased the flow rate (did you mess with the flow rate?).  Flow rates over 110% are likely to cause problems like this.

2) too many retractions.  Some prints have hundreds of retractions within just 1 or 2 minutes of printing.  If the same spot of filament goes backwards and forwards through the feeder 10 times it's fine but 20 times is enough to sometimes cause this flattening.  40 times will almost guarantee this flattening.  Look at the layer that failed in layer view in cura.  There are 2 colors for non-printing moves: light blue and dark blue.  I forget which one is retracting move but if you have more than other models that were fine then this may be the problem.  You can tell cura to retract less.   Do this by setting "maximum retration count" to 10 and "minimum extrusion distance" to your retraction distance (4.5mm for UM2 and 6.5 for UM3 and 8mm for S5).

3) Clogs/jams - extra material can get in the bowden and cause a jam but you already tested for this so I don't think this is the issue anymore but may have been the issue once.

4) Tangles

 

 Yes i might have pushed printing speed a little bit too far but it was fine I was printing at high speed since day one. No I haven't changed flow rate. I don't think that the problem is in too many retractions because I can't even get to the printing when I changed the spool loaded new material for the first few seconds extrusion is like it should be then it slowly stops extruding and that is when I know feeder started grinding on filament. But the strange thing is it happend when I changed material for print core 1 and all of a sudden the problem occurred on both feeders.

Edited by Vasadze

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
4 hours ago, Vasadze said:

Filament is not tangled yes I use Spool holder on the back. what is filament guide? and how do I disable filament sensor? I dont know.

 

I mean this 

SDB2017-04-11_0001-34.JPG

 

 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
57 minutes ago, Smithy said:

I mean this 

SDB2017-04-11_0001-34.JPG

 

 

yes I use that load material for print core 1

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

I think it's a coincidence that it happened on both extruders.

 

Note that it's very bad to leave PVA at printing temp for more than a few minutes.  It gets gummed up/solid.

 

Filament sensor is in the menu system.  I recommend you leave it enabled.

 

Try doing a few hot and cold pulls on the primary core.  That is also in the menu system - it walks you through the process.

 

I really doubt this is related to the feeder as the feeder on the S5 is so amazing but it's possible.  To test it, use that lever on it to insert the filament only half way down the tube, then do "move material" to energize the stepper, then pull down hard on the filament.  It should not slip with 5kg of force.

 

So you say you "pushed" the speed a bit.  What was the infill speed (or fasted of the 8 or so printing speeds) when you increased the speed?  What was the temperature of the nozzle (hotter PLA is less viscous and can print a bit faster)?

 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

Oh and did you put the feeder tension back to centered?  That alone can cause this issue (grinding filament flat).

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
8 hours ago, gr5 said:

I think it's a coincidence that it happened on both extruders.

 

Note that it's very bad to leave PVA at printing temp for more than a few minutes.  It gets gummed up/solid.

 

Filament sensor is in the menu system.  I recommend you leave it enabled.

 

Try doing a few hot and cold pulls on the primary core.  That is also in the menu system - it walks you through the process.

 

I really doubt this is related to the feeder as the feeder on the S5 is so amazing but it's possible.  To test it, use that lever on it to insert the filament only half way down the tube, then do "move material" to energize the stepper, then pull down hard on the filament.  It should not slip with 5kg of force.

 

So you say you "pushed" the speed a bit.  What was the infill speed (or fasted of the 8 or so printing speeds) when you increased the speed?  What was the temperature of the nozzle (hotter PLA is less viscous and can print a bit faster)?

 

I did hot and cold pulls on the primary core several times. I have never changed infill print myself I had that option hidden. Usually my print speed was 150 and as I checked on that speed infill speed is 110 by the default but for the last prints before my problem occurred I was printing at 55 and infill speed on that printing speed 40 by the default. Yes I did put the feeder tension back to centered since it gave no difference after changing it.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

Did you ever clean the feeder? 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
1 hour ago, SandervG said:

Did you ever clean the feeder? 

Yes I did clean feeders as well. Both of them.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

Is your center fan running?

 

Sounds like the same problem I encountered.

No matter how many hot- and cold pulls I did resolved it.

Manual move was ok (fingers are stronger than the feeder)

New wire printed a minute or two before it stopped and started grinding.

Happened to both cores.

 

Luckily I found a replacement fan on Farnell delivered next day. 

Still waiting for one to be sent on warrranty by my supplier since Jan 17....

 

Does your filament looks like this when you pull it out from the core (thickened):

IMG_20190117_23426.jpg.ac59be9567a78d4bb

 

 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
5 minutes ago, AndersK said:

Is your center fan running?

 

Sounds like the same problem I encountered.

No matter how many hot- and cold pulls I did resolved it.

Manual move was ok (fingers are stronger than the feeder)

New wire printed a minute or two before it stopped and started grinding.

Happened to both cores.

 

Luckily I found a replacement fan on Farnell delivered next day. 

Still waiting for one to be sent on warrranty by my supplier since Jan 17....

 

Does your filament looks like this when you pull it out from the core (thickened):

IMG_20190117_23426.jpg.ac59be9567a78d4bb

 

 

No it doesn't get thicker and fan is working fine 😞

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

@Vasadze, could you share some photo's of your Ultimaker? Front / back, a few different angles so perhaps we can detect something that seems off. 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
5 hours ago, Vasadze said:

Yes I did clean feeders as well. Both of them.

How did you clean them? Just in case, here are some instructions in case you may have missed a step. 

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
13 hours ago, SandervG said:

How did you clean them? Just in case, here are some instructions in case you may have missed a step. 

I used for cleaning feeders. I will upload some pictures this evening. 

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Posted (edited) · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5

what would help is when you load the material, feed it manual in the Bowden tube just 2 cm, and not 20 cm like you did.

What happens is that the fast forward brings the tip of the filament too soon at the nozzle. Just put in the filament 2 cm, close the feeder, let the fast forward transport the filament to the printhead and the last bit is transported slower towards the nozzle.

Edited by peggyb
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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
1 hour ago, peggyb said:

what would help is when you load the material, feed it manual in the Bowden tube just 2 cm, and not 20 cm like you did.

What happens is that the fast forward brings the tip of the filament too soon at the nozzle. Just put in the filament 2 cm, close the feeder, let the fast forward transport the filament to the printhead and the last bit is transported slower towards the nozzle.

Looking at the video, I will have to echo this comment. You can hear the motors trying to still get the filament to move at full load speed when it has already entered the nozzle. You can see it slow down as it grinds a bit.

 

The biggest problem with this is that while it may still feed, the grinding will create parts of the filament that are pushed outwards and create filament friction from even the smallest amount that increased the effective diameter.

FilamentGrinding.thumb.jpg.4a67258e946adff07f6f1dfbb9c23853.jpg

 

And, even if you do not load it far enough to engage the nozzle fully when the motor slows down to 'feeding speed', just flip the lever open and manually feed it into the nozzle and then flip the lever closed again. This will let the feeder work as intended.

 

As for it working up to this point, you may have just gotten lucky. I know that has happened to me a lot on new operations and it is frustrating.

 

Also, flattening on one direction will force out the perpendicular direction as it will still want to keep the overall volume. It is not always the grinding, but usually is as well.

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Posted · Material is ground down by both feeders on Ultimaker S5
1 hour ago, kmanstudios said:

Looking at the video, I will have to echo this comment. You can hear the motors trying to still get the filament to move at full load speed when it has already entered the nozzle. You can see it slow down as it grinds a bit.

 

The biggest problem with this is that while it may still feed, the grinding will create parts of the filament that are pushed outwards and create filament friction from even the smallest amount that increased the effective diameter.

FilamentGrinding.thumb.jpg.4a67258e946adff07f6f1dfbb9c23853.jpg

 

And, even if you do not load it far enough to engage the nozzle fully when the motor slows down to 'feeding speed', just flip the lever open and manually feed it into the nozzle and then flip the lever closed again. This will let the feeder work as intended.

 

As for it working up to this point, you may have just gotten lucky. I know that has happened to me a lot on new operations and it is frustrating.

 

Also, flattening on one direction will force out the perpendicular direction as it will still want to keep the overall volume. It is not always the grinding, but usually is as well.

WOW it worked to be honest at first I did not think it would help but I guess I've been  printing for few months on sheer luck 😄 
thank you very much for help now I can print again 🙂 

thank you all for helping 

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