WTF!? with my prints warpping EVERYWHERE

[Balshaj 1]

I was printing stuff just fine, but all of a sudden my prints come out like garbage, and i cant figure out why, the support doesnt print like it should, the warpping is biblical and every one out there seems to only print in PLA which has no warping.  Im printing Nylon.  also the corners are not sharp at all the top of the print is off even though i use auto leveling.  obviously im doing everything wrong.   so where do i start , to the belts need to be replaced or what?

 

i will print a cube to show u the results.

 

thanks for reading my incoherent rant!

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi @Balshaj, thank you for your message. I have made some edits to your message because there was some language in there that we don't appreciate and is not necessary. Please be mindful of that in your future replies. Thank you for understanding. 

 

Regarding the topic at hand, it would be helpful to see some photo's so let's wait for that. Do you print with Ultimaker Nylon or a different brand? Is it an old or new spool? Do you use the default material profile found in Cura?

 

Thanks. 

[Balshaj 1]

Sorry for the language just incredibly frustrated. It's funny cause the first layer is flawless and than the printer does idk what, it printing stuff that I'm not even seeing in cura, layers I've used custom profiles that have gotten me great results, the last picture is of a perfect piece.  The first 3 pictures are of the failed print and the cura.

I use ultimaker pva, and NylonX from matter hackers. Both spools are brand new and its not the material because the flow is excellent the adhesions is excellent when I break pieces apart to see the layers, it's all fused as one piece.

[Enigma_M4 119]

Hi,

Nylon is a tricky material that tends to warp. I had best results using the Ultimaker adhesion sheets and a closed build chamber (the UM3(E) advanced printing kit is the best choice for both). But sometimes it can't prevent warping at all.

Regards

[fbrc8-erin 272]

You could also turn down the cooling fans (or turn them off). Nylon shrinks as it cools, so slowing down the cooling should help.

[SandervG 1,521]

It also looks like on that bottom piece of your first picture that adhesion to the buildplate might not have been sufficient, the way the square is situated between the skirt and the lines that are visible inside of it. Is your leveling correct, and did you apply an adhesive? 

[Gero 54]

This might sound strange but try a print with the bed set to 40°C.

 

I am printing nylon almost 24/7 with no extra bed adhesion for 99% of the time.  

(To be fair, I have a different build plate that's not glass anymore, but for a while I did this on glass as well)

 

If it isn't working get the Magigoo PA glue. That and the bed at 40°C works for sure.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Gero

[gr5 2,172]

I print a LOT of nylon.  I actually prefer the bed hotter.  80C or 90C.  Nylon gets more flexible up until around 120C where it suddenly melts and more flexible is good because the warping forces are absorbed by infinitesimal amounts of flexure and helps keep the print on the bed.

 

But this probably isn't your main problem.

 

I like Erin's advice about lowering the fan.  I like around 3% fan on my UM3 but everyone's fan is different.

 

But most important is bed preparation and "squish".  Make real sure the bed is clean and I use a mixture of elmer's wood glue and water (about 20 parts water to 1 part glue but you can do 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 and it works fine).  Mix that up well in a jar with a lid and then paint it on with a paint brush.  Heat the bed up to printing temp (e.g. 70C) until it dries out and should be transparent.

 

Squish meaning you have to squish the first layer better.  Or level better.  If you are using autolevel then I don't know what's going on as that usually works.  I always do manual level and then adjust the bed up/down slightly when it's printing the skirt the first time and then I don't touch leveling for months.  I have videos of me doing the leveling procedure here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t58-WTxDy-k

 

Finally - you don't need any support for that cube.  That's the calibration cube.  No support!

 

DRY DRY DRY

 

Keep your nylon and PVA dry.  Unlike PLA which you can practically store in a lake, Nylon and PVA can be "ruined" with just leaving it on the printer for 2 days doing nothing.  So keep those in a 2 gallon zip lock bag with a cup of dessicant for each spool and keep recharging the dessicant every month (use color changing dessicant so you know when it needs drying again - I dry either in the microwave or on the bed).

 

To dry "ruined" Nylon or PVA put it on the heated bed under 5 layers of towels and set the bed to 70C for PVA or 80C for Nylon.  Leave it like that for 24 to 48 hours.  Or if you are in a rush - look at your job and see how many meters of filament you need.  Unspool that amount and without cutting anything just put that much filament on the bed and sit the spool on top and again cover with towels and you only need maybe 4 hours at 70C (less at higher temps but you can warp the filament or the spool).

 

 

[JTMD 20]

Way back in the mid 1980's I was working for a IV Pump manufacturer and had access to a Stratasys Prodigy 3D FFF printer.  It was the first one I ever used.  It used a rigid foam for a print surface and making a raft, printed in ABS and used HIPS for support material.  It made prints that were AMAZING.  Never jammed, prints NEVER warped.  I still have prints made back them that are far superior to what my S5 makes.  Years later after moving on to a different company that could not ( or would not ) justify purchasing a printer so I ventured into the home-made hobby market.  Pretty much repraps and clones.. Arduino and RAMPS boards.  I ended up making one essentially a reprap style and used Marlin software, glass print surface, I think I was using Hatchbox ABS.  Never was happy with the result - warping was common
Moving on to another medical device company - They had a monster Stratasys (model name escapes me) that printed in PC - but that company was very territorial and only certain people could use it so, I made another printer basically copying the Prodigy.  Biggest differences was moving to the lifting Z axis supported with 3 large diameter lead screws driven with 3 NEMA 23 steppers, LARGE linear rails for X & Y also driven with NEMA 23s (so REALLY rigid and beefy.) but the biggest change was to surround the entire machine with rigid insulation and heating the workspace like an oven.  THAT printer made prints equal to the Stratasys.  Unfortunately that company was sold to an international mega conglomerate and hundreds of us hit the streets in 2016 - I have no idea what happened to that printer.
I ended up working for a small company that had a Pro Bundle.  It did OK, wasn't a Stratasys but was OK.
So now I'm retired, moved to the high desert and am building a workshop.  It'll be a year or two before I can build another Stratasys clone so, I buy an S5.   ABS warps.   I bought the air handler and installed it today - hopefully that will help but if it doesn't - I'll be adding insulation and an air heater.  If that doesn't fix it, I'll be making another clone.  🙂

Bottom line - for ABS at least..  keep it HOT and cool it slowly when it's done.

I use hairspray for adhesion and have never had a spalling glass plate problem but I've always printed a raft with non-ABS so maybe that's why..

 

 

[fbrc8-erin 272]

4 hours ago, JTMD said:

 ABS warps.   I bought the air handler and installed it today - hopefully that will help but if it doesn't - I'll be adding insulation and an air heater.  If that doesn't fix it, I'll be making another clone.  🙂

 

What brand of ABS are you printing? If printing Ultimaker ABS, it should be good with your Air Manager and the doors closed with the default settings.

If you're using another brand of ABS, make sure to turn the bed temperature way up. Ultimaker ABS prints well in an 80 degree bed, so that's what the profile is set for. Pretty much every other brand I've encountered needs 90-100.

[JTMD 20]

I'm running eSun since I had good success with it in the past and my son has had good results with his UM3.   Build plate is 100C

 

got a 16 hr print running now, halfway through.  so far so good.   build space is showing 118F and humidity is 14%   (I'm in the desert @3800 ft MSL)  ambient is 98F right now and lately it's been getting down to 85 at night, which is when I've been seeing warping occur.

[Balshaj 1]

On 9/10/2021 at 2:13 AM, SandervG said:

It also looks like on that bottom piece of your first picture that adhesion to the buildplate might not have been sufficient, the way the square is situated between the skirt and the lines that are visible inside of it. Is your leveling correct, and did you apply an adhesive? 

the adhesion was correct but i think once the nozzle dug in it must have moves the part around , since the tower was fully intact, as for the leveling, it was auto leveled so it looked good!

[Balshaj 1]

On 9/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, fbrc8-erin said:

You could also turn down the cooling fans (or turn them off). Nylon shrinks as it cools, so slowing down the cooling should help.

the fan for nylon is off, the fan for pva was 50%, im gonna do a few more test cubes and than adjust fans, i have worked with nylon long enough to have an appreciation for having fans off lol

[Balshaj 1]

On 9/10/2021 at 6:46 AM, gr5 said:

I print a LOT of nylon.  I actually prefer the bed hotter.  80C or 90C.  Nylon gets more flexible up until around 120C where it suddenly melts and more flexible is good because the warping forces are absorbed by infinitesimal amounts of flexure and helps keep the print on the bed.

 

But this probably isn't your main problem.

 

I like Erin's advice about lowering the fan.  I like around 3% fan on my UM3 but everyone's fan is different.

 

But most important is bed preparation and "squish".  Make real sure the bed is clean and I use a mixture of elmer's wood glue and water (about 20 parts water to 1 part glue but you can do 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 and it works fine).  Mix that up well in a jar with a lid and then paint it on with a paint brush.  Heat the bed up to printing temp (e.g. 70C) until it dries out and should be transparent.

 

Squish meaning you have to squish the first layer better.  Or level better.  If you are using autolevel then I don't know what's going on as that usually works.  I always do manual level and then adjust the bed up/down slightly when it's printing the skirt the first time and then I don't touch leveling for months.  I have videos of me doing the leveling procedure here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t58-WTxDy-k

 

Finally - you don't need any support for that cube.  That's the calibration cube.  No support!

 

DRY DRY DRY

 

Keep your nylon and PVA dry.  Unlike PLA which you can practically store in a lake, Nylon and PVA can be "ruined" with just leaving it on the printer for 2 days doing nothing.  So keep those in a 2 gallon zip lock bag with a cup of dessicant for each spool and keep recharging the dessicant every month (use color changing dessicant so you know when it needs drying again - I dry either in the microwave or on the bed).

 

To dry "ruined" Nylon or PVA put it on the heated bed under 5 layers of towels and set the bed to 70C for PVA or 80C for Nylon.  Leave it like that for 24 to 48 hours.  Or if you are in a rush - look at your job and see how many meters of filament you need.  Unspool that amount and without cutting anything just put that much filament on the bed and sit the spool on top and again cover with towels and you only need maybe 4 hours at 70C (less at higher temps but you can warp the filament or the spool).

 

 

I do agree that i have always run the bed at 85C and yes i do use the elmers glue sticks, is ur way better if sooo i shall do that !  i dry my filaments 24 hr and keep them in drying while printing, so im 100% thats not the issue,  i used autolevel so that shouldn't be issue either i read that ultimaker says to also make the first layer thicker, will try that out and see how it works!  also the supports i put in just cause.  back to the grind!, ill post pics and keep  things updated in case others have this issue!

[Balshaj 1]

23 hours ago, JTMD said:

Way back in the mid 1980's I was working for a IV Pump manufacturer and had access to a Stratasys Prodigy 3D FFF printer.  It was the first one I ever used.  It used a rigid foam for a print surface and making a raft, printed in ABS and used HIPS for support material.  It made prints that were AMAZING.  Never jammed, prints NEVER warped.  I still have prints made back them that are far superior to what my S5 makes.  Years later after moving on to a different company that could not ( or would not ) justify purchasing a printer so I ventured into the home-made hobby market.  Pretty much repraps and clones.. Arduino and RAMPS boards.  I ended up making one essentially a reprap style and used Marlin software, glass print surface, I think I was using Hatchbox ABS.  Never was happy with the result - warping was common
Moving on to another medical device company - They had a monster Stratasys (model name escapes me) that printed in PC - but that company was very territorial and only certain people could use it so, I made another printer basically copying the Prodigy.  Biggest differences was moving to the lifting Z axis supported with 3 large diameter lead screws driven with 3 NEMA 23 steppers, LARGE linear rails for X & Y also driven with NEMA 23s (so REALLY rigid and beefy.) but the biggest change was to surround the entire machine with rigid insulation and heating the workspace like an oven.  THAT printer made prints equal to the Stratasys.  Unfortunately that company was sold to an international mega conglomerate and hundreds of us hit the streets in 2016 - I have no idea what happened to that printer.
I ended up working for a small company that had a Pro Bundle.  It did OK, wasn't a Stratasys but was OK.
So now I'm retired, moved to the high desert and am building a workshop.  It'll be a year or two before I can build another Stratasys clone so, I buy an S5.   ABS warps.   I bought the air handler and installed it today - hopefully that will help but if it doesn't - I'll be adding insulation and an air heater.  If that doesn't fix it, I'll be making another clone.  🙂

Bottom line - for ABS at least..  keep it HOT and cool it slowly when it's done.

I use hairspray for adhesion and have never had a spalling glass plate problem but I've always printed a raft with non-ABS so maybe that's why..

 

thats a fun read, does hair spray work with nylon too or just abs?

[Balshaj 1]

also one quick question as well, when the printer prints the blobs, the PVA it over does it and idk how to stop it, the stuf comes out so much it engulfs the nozzle, that cant be normal ?

[JTMD 20]

21 minutes ago, Balshaj said:

thats a fun read, does hair spray work with nylon too or just abs?

 

I honestly don't know.  my whole career has been designing and building automated machines and 3D printers came in real handy - first for prototyping and conceptualizing, then for making actual parts as the quality of prints improved.  Since the first machine I had was strictly for printing ABS, I stuck with it the rest of my career and still use it today.  That first machine printed on rigid foam making a raft for the part,  I started using glass plates back in the reprap days (but still always use a raft.)  Glue sticks were the rage then but I discovered hair spray through a Robo3D user group and have used it since.
I wont use PLA.  I had an intern once that was so taken with my home brew Prodigy clone that he went out and got one of the inexpensive printers - brought into the office a bunch of his PLA prints (mostly yoda dolls and D&D stuff)  after a few weeks of sun through the window most were warped.
3D printers aren't my hobby, for me it's a tool for bigger things.  I don't really feel the burn to try out all the different materials, although I recently bought some stuff that's supposed to be UV tolerant, but haven't tried it yet.
Right now I'm printing parts for use with my home brew material station.

Very early in my career I was a pattern maker in a non-ferrous foundry working along side men that were pattern makers during the WWII days..  I loved it and would still be doing that if CNC machines had not wiped small foundries from existence.  I've been using 3D prints to make patterns now..

 

[JTMD 20]

12 minutes ago, Balshaj said:

also one quick question as well, when the printer prints the blobs, the PVA it over does it and idk how to stop it, the stuf comes out so much it engulfs the nozzle, that cant be normal ?

I turned the blob off.  I use a raft so pre-pumping material out isn't really necessary but have you tried just printing a skirt?

[Balshaj 1]

6 hours ago, JTMD said:

I turned the blob off.  I use a raft so pre-pumping material out isn't really necessary but have you tried just printing a skirt?

QUICK follow up on the situation, i use skirt and i think i will turn blob off as well, and i will be using raft from now on i believe.  the liberal use of the glew stick might have kept my print from warping this time that and the raft, either way their all gonna be use now.

[Balshaj 1]

First things first, the cube over all came out well and I did have 3 minor issues that I have highlighted. 

 

I tried another test with support and it was a disaster as u can see, idk where to even begin...the only good thing was there was no warping off the build plate.

 

Also I used raft but it was printing raft with both materials,  is that normal?

[gr5 2,172]

This discussion of ABS is confusing the issue as I think the original poster mentioned only PVA and Nylon.  So I suspect the above print is Nylon which makes a huge difference.

 

You can make fantastic ABS prints but it's much more difficult.  You want to enclose the printer and get the air temp up to about 35C.  You want the fan on (at least my S5) at around 1 to 3%.  You want to test layer adhesion as that is the most common problem with ABS once you get parts to no longer "warp".

 

But back to @Balshaj...

 

I recommend going back to the default settings.  Don't use support for that cube.  Keep your filaments VERY dry.  If your part isn't sticking watch my video that I posted earlier.  I talk about surface preparation (pva glue stick versus wood glue (similar to pva) versus hair spray (similar to pva) versus ABS juice etc).  Why parts warp.  Why bed temp matters (not what you think).  Why squish is so important.  Why you don't need raft (an old technology that isn't needed anymore with heated beds).  Why raft helped in the "old" days before PLA was popular.

[Balshaj 1]

So the cube came out great over all, minor issues and dimensions were within range and adhesion was excellent...

 

The only issue now is why the support for the tree print isn't printing correctly,  the pva flow is good, I don't get it

[SandervG 1,521]

 

12 hours ago, Balshaj said:

So the cube came out great over all, minor issues and dimensions were within range and adhesion was excellent...

That is great to hear! 

 

12 hours ago, Balshaj said:

why the support for the tree print isn't printing correctly,  the pva flow is good,

I don't know if you have installed the Settings Guide plugin, but in the Tree section of the Settings Guide it says that Tree support is unsuitable for more difficult to print materials like PVA and flexible supports. The advantages of having no scarring also don't really apply to PVA since you don't have that anyway. So if you wish to use PVA, I would recommend to switch to regular support structures. Hope this helps!

[Balshaj 1]

6 hours ago, SandervG said:

 

That is great to hear! 

 

I don't know if you have installed the Settings Guide plugin, but in the Tree section of the Settings Guide it says that Tree support is unsuitable for more difficult to print materials like PVA and flexible supports. The advantages of having no scarring also don't really apply to PVA since you don't have that anyway. So if you wish to use PVA, I would recommend to switch to regular support structures. Hope this helps!

sorry i meant the tree model i was printing was coming out incomplete ,  also does PVA leave scarring because i have seen scaring on prints before when using PVA. 

 

and is there a way to have the raft print with only 1 material and not both, i didnt see it in settings!

 

ill post pics of new support print hopefully it comes out well.

[SandervG 1,521]

9 minutes ago, Balshaj said:

also does PVA leave scarring because i have seen scaring on prints before when using PVA. 

 

Scarring is usually used to refer to the little remains you see on the surface of your print where you removed support (with pliers). PVA doesn't require the removal of support since it dissolves in water, so there should usually be no scarring indeed. The smoothness of your surface can be influenced with the X, Y and Z distance between support and your model, and your support structure + density, but the default profile settings should give you pretty good results from the start.