Jump to content
Ultimaker Community of 3D Printing Experts
Sign in to follow this  
gr5

Ultimaker did well in huge 3D printer comparison (over 100,000 test prints!)

Recommended Posts

the survey was slightly strange - even though I have 2 UMOs they were called UMO+ and suddenly changed on my hub too!

but at least they are the opinions of actual users!

I think if organisations actually realised how much support they would have to supply they would probably price the printers higher or try and do the Mbot and sell you a 'package'.

So many things to go wrong and enormous range of users.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i can see why..

there is no mention at all that things like Teflon pieces need to be replaced regularly. neither is the hot-end mentioned. even better, up to 2 months ago they were not even mentioned in the store..

honestly when i bought the UM2 i was unpleasantly surprised that i needed to replace those parts regularly.. i'm now on my 6th Teflon piece.. and we still don't have an answer regarding the guidance on when to replace what on the printer..

i know this might sound like a rant, but it bothers me... it does not make the printer less great though..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i can see why..

there is no mention at all that things like Teflon pieces need to be replaced regularly. neither is the hot-end mentioned. even better, up to 2 months ago they were not even mentioned in the store..

honestly when i bought the UM2 i was unpleasantly surprised that i needed to replace those parts regularly.. i'm now on my 6th Teflon piece.. and we still don't have an answer regarding the guidance on when to replace what on the printer..

i know this might sound like a rant, but it bothers me... it does not make the printer less great though..

 

Your 6th teflon for the amount of time you have your Ultimaker sounds like a lot!

There is like a thin line we yet have to figure out.

Allow me to sketch an example:

Lets say we supplied every Ultimaker 2 with a spare nozzle to replace once it is clogged.

I bet you that as soon as something interferes with a print, or there is a plug or any reason why a print is not completed successfully 9/10 people will start replacing their nozzle. While in fact with the Atomic Method you can restore it to a usable shape very easily. So by saying the teflon piece needs to be replaced regularly you will never be able to convince someone, if there is under extrusion, it is not the teflon piece. At the same time we would never deny it is not the case, that it does not show signs of wear.. but we are still looking for the best angle on how to put this.

We obviously don't want to set wrong expectations of what to expect with your Ultimaker and we want users to learn how to do maintenance. As soon as you know how to fix something, it changes from a problem into a delay / inconvenience.

To the question, when to replace what on the machine. That is atm impossible to say, because it depends on the frequency the Ultimaker is used, what material is being used, what environment it is in, what profile is being used, etc.

It takes some getting to know the machine to pinpoint if something needs to be replaced.

I also think we did well on those tests.

But every comparison leaves some room for interpretation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my ultimaker has now logged over 2700 hours of printing.. a teflon piece lasts about 300 to 500 hours..

i have to say i disagree with your statement. while your initial statement is true, giving someone a spare part will mean that that person will interpret that, without proper guidance, as soon as something breaks or misbehaves, he or she should definitely install the spare part. why else would you give a spare part?

this being said, if you supplied an extra hot-end with every ultimaker AND proper guidance of what to look for and how to perform simple tasks like the atomic pull, that would make perfect sense. If I get a new Ultimaker with a nice 4 page document (a document i've offered to write for you a couple of times btw) that tells you, you've bought a great machine, and with great power comes great responsibility. more specifically, great maintenance. this is what you need to do to keep your machine running perfectly :

1)buy taulman nylon and perform a cold pull when you see this happening (insert pictures)

2)should your print suffer while retracting, you might want to take apart your hot end. this is how your teflon piece should look like (insert picture). this is how a teflon piece looks that causes retraction and feeding issues (insert picture)

etc. etc.

every tool without proper guidance becomes a hammer..

i also agree with the underextrusion. i have to say that with a non-standard feeder, the teflon piece, even if completely worn out, will not really cause underextrusion. it will however cause major issues when you are doing prints with high amounts of retractions.

the thing is, I know these things because I broke my ultimaker, waited for more than a week for a reply on my support ticket, then started doing things on my own. googling, using the forums, being deadly afraid of breaking my machine by following a forum, not guidance from the manufacturer.. by now I think I've sufficiently tinkered with the machine to understand it.. I even helped some of your support people ;) the thing is, this process is not unique for me.. there is no maintenance or repair manual. something that people would definitely expect from a machine that is this expensive.

if you're not honest about this people will be disappointed in support and maintenance cost.. something that is reflected in the poll..

it is abundantly clear that everyone thinks the UM2 is an awesome printer.. there is simply room for improvement :)

a lot of the things you are saying are clear to you.. and clear to people who have experienced it first hand. but to the novice that bought a printer, this feels like being thrown in the deep.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Eldrick;

not at all :)

I've been trying quite a bit of different things ;)

PLA, XT, ABS.. wide variety..

but I do want to be clear, there are various stages of "running fine" .. perhaps your running fine would not meet my standards for running fine..

i'm using UltiArjan's version of Roberts feeder which means i can put a tremendous amount of force on the filament, this means that i would push the filament through even though the stock feeder would fail at this point. as long as the print is not retraction heavy, i can still print just fine with a "broken" Teflon piece with the feeder i'm using and the fact that i keep the hot-end clean with both cleaning filament and the cold pull method.

however, if i would do a retraction heavy print it would fail very soon..

it's the point Sander tried to make and i completely agree with.. just because the Teflon piece is damaged (i'm sure yours is after 2100 hours) does not mean it has to affect the printing quality if you are not printing retraction heavy prints..

K.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

~20 reviews versus ~150 reviews isn't that great from a statistical standpoint according to the computer scientist at the office.

 

I pointed this out to them, and for some unfathomable reason they felt that the standard deviation for 21 reviews came out almost identical to 140 reviews. I am not a statistician of their calibre clearly, but this seems a little implausible.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking from experience, with multiple Um2's, and doing this as a business, I'd have to say both Ultimaker is right, and the consumer is right.

The ultimaker will burn through Teflon.

It will break the temperature sensor (eventually)

You will break glass (Part pulling up thin layers of the glass when popping them free)

Heater blocks will go bad ,especially you guys who like shoving things into the nozzle to clear them... remember, brass is soft, if you stick steel into the nozzle to clear it out, steel is harder and will scar the brass.

Having said that,

Ultimaker's support is the best in the business. Countless times they've replaced parts for me. Sure, I've had to buy several Teflon insulators, but that's the cost of running these printers.

As far as Ultimaker supplying spare parts with the printer... let's be honest... A LOT of people would throw on that spare part first sign of trouble...who doesn't like a fresh part on the printer if you think it may be the culprit. Those costs would just be tacked on to the printer price after a while...that's just business.

In the end... IMHO The UM2 (possibly the UM and UM+ as well) are rock solid performers, and it shows in almost every review. YES there is room for improvement... but that's true with almost every piece of technical piece of equipment you can buy today.

P.S. Still waiting for the Dual extrusion

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently changed my hot end and teflon after 6 months of regular printing (cant say the number of hours at the moment) but both pieces are still good after a good cleanup and will swap them back when I need.

Support & community is great, I'm happy with the quality.

Room for improvements? Yes. Lets start with a quiet rear fan, a more robust heater wire, better fan duck, a hot end with interchangeable nozzle size, ...

Dual extrusion +1 :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also in favor of a quiet rear fan.

Having said that, I have never understood why that fan must be always on by default, even when the printer is not printing.

It is interesting to hear about things that until reading this thread I did not know about.

- What is the "atomic pull"?

- Where is the teflon part located that everybody is talking about?

- How does one change a damaged teflon part?

- How does one clear a clogged nozzle?

- How does one replace a damaged nozzle?

- How does one replace a broken temperature sensor?

- How does one even know that a temperature sensor is broken?

The user manual that came with my printer has some scant few "simple troubleshooting tips", but absolutely nothing about any regular necessary maintenance other than a mention about greasing the Z screw and oiling the X and Y rods. No guidance whatsoever about what steps to follow to take certain assemblies apart and how to reassemble them after replacing parts.

I would think that for such an expensive machine something like this would be considered standard procedure. I don't expect that my printer will perform flawlessly forever. Parts wear out, that is normal for any machine. What I do expect is a clearly written maintenance manual, a list of parts that can be expected to fail, and a list of what parts are available to purchase from the manufacturer.

I did not know about these issues until now. Knowing about them now, I may even want to order a few parts including installation instructions, so that if or when one of those parts fails, I can replace it without having to contact customer support.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the assembly manual.

https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker2/blob/master/um2%20assembly%20manual%20V1.1%20_english.pdf

check this section:

F. Assembly of the Hot-end

It will help you understand your printer better.

- What is the "atomic pull"?

This is a method usually used to unclog a nozzle.

http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/3561-ultimaker-2-extruder-nozzle-blocked/&do=findComment&comment=28940

 

- Where is the teflon part located that everybody is talking about?

Its the white piece about the nozzle.

 

- How does one change a damaged teflon part?

see manual

 

- How does one clear a clogged nozzle?

use the atomic pull method

 

- How does one replace a damaged nozzle?

see manual

 

- How does one replace a broken temperature sensor?

see manual

 

- How does one even know that a temperature sensor is broken?

if the temp of the nozzle doesn't raise fast enough the controller will display an error. The issue can come from the heater (big wire entering the nozzle) or from the sensor (small wire entering the nozzle).

 

I hope this help :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the assembly manual.

https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker2/blob/master/um2%20assembly%20manual%20V1.1%20_english.pdf

check this section:

F. Assembly of the Hot-end

 

Thanks pm_dude. I wonder why Ultimaker would not have provided this manual with the printer. I find such a document very informative and helpful. How did you even know where to find this or know that this manual even existed?

The manual regarding the hot end assembly seems rather messy and mostly geared to people who assemble these machines as their job. This is not meant for users to do maintenance on this machine. They don't show how the wires for the cartridge heater and the PT100 (they don't explain what that is) are connected to the wires inside the braided sleeve. Or are those wires already inside the sleeve from the start to be connected somewhere on the other end?

A funny side note. Even though this is supposed to be an English manual, there is still Dutch in it here and there. They use "messing" instead of "brass", and "bevestigen van de fans" instead of "attaching the fans"

Step 16 seems wrong. I think "and the fanduct from the hotend to the pink blue cable" should read "And the cable from the fan from the hotend to the pink blue cable".

To make sure I understand this correctly is this the correct disassembly procedure:

1. Disconnect the Bowden tube

2. Slide the braided sleeve up away over the electrical wires

3. Unscrew the four thumb screw to remove the nozzle and fans assemblies

4. Remove the fanduct assembly with fans. Remove and replace fans if needed

5. Remove the nozzle assembly by unscrewing the stainless steel insulator. I am not clear how the cartridge heater and the PT100 should be replaced, because even though I can now easily remove them from the nozzle, I don't know where the cables lead to, and how they attach at the other end. They seem to lead to the back of the printer and go through a hole below the material feeder into the inside of the machine.

6. Remove the hot end cooling fan

7. Disassemble the remaining part of the hot end to get at the teflon part to replace it.

Find a supplier of copper grease to reapply to hotend before reassembly.

All in all this seems quite an involved affair. Especially if the cartridge heater and/or the PT100 (whatever that is) need to be replaced.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just checked and appartly I did 900 hours of prints with my first teflon part. Not bad :D

The UMO comes in kit and need to be assembled. Therefore when you buy it you will learn how to build it. The UM2 is already built but looking at the assembly manual you will learn a lot too. I know it exists because of the people on this forum but always get the link from a simple google search. Dont forget: Its all open source.

I had to replace the heater and it helped me alot.

Here is a video on how to disassemble the head.

 

You dont need to replace the grease if you keep the same steel insulator.

The cables go all the way under the printer.

That part is a pain in the butt but very educative ;). I did this part with the printer turned on its right side:

- Take the left corner cover (the long white metal corner inside the printer volume)

- Lift the build plate

- Remove all the screws that hold the main board cover

- Remove the cover

- Unscrew the main board

- If you want the new heater to be inside the black net I suggest you pass the new one while removing the old one (tape the end of the new one to the tip of the old one and pull it out slowly)

- Unscrew the 2 connections for the heater

- Plug the new one in.

- rescrew everything back

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude,

That video is awesome! Thanks a lot. And you paid extra attention to keep everything in focus. So many YouTube videos our out of focus and often not even in frame. I saved it for future use. Hopefully far into the future.

And as I feared, replacing the heater or temperature sensor (so that's what that PT 100 is?) is a pain with several chances to mess things up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

Welcome to the Ultimaker Community of 3D printing experts. Visit the following links to read more about our Terms of Use or our Privacy Policy. Thank you!