Aluminum build plate update

[P3D 46]

2 hours ago, mkaj2019 said:

 

Are you trying to compare a 40k printer with a 5k printer? 

 

Ummm no, maybe more like comparing a 4k printer to a 6k printer? (Onyx One vs. UM S5). Of course the build volume is bigger with the S5, and the material costs are quite a bit higher with the Markforged, but still I think this is a valid comparison, as it is about how accurate the profiles are (how dimensions come out when printed when compared to CAD.

[mkaj2019 41]

2 hours ago, NBull said:

 

If you wanna compare printer to printer, then no it's not a reasonable comparison.

 

But this is about the print profiles. The comparison lies in the fact that bout MarkForged and Ultimaker controles the whole supply chain. Printer, Fillement and Software so from that point i think its an resenebole comparison.

 

Yeah, in the end you are absolutely right. The standard profiles are mostely inadequate and this has nothing to do with instrument variances. Some of the profiles suffer from overextrusion (like ToughPLA) with the 0,4 nozzle, No linear advance, bad xy accuracy, temp issues (230°C for Ultimaker Nylon with a 0,25 nozzle is way to low and results in absolutely no layer adhesion, I'm printing with 245°C now)...

 

BUT I think this should be discussed in different topics and not in the aluminium build plate topic.

 

In my opinion the missing  aluminium build plate is not a loss. Whether aluminium or glass plate, i think both are not an optimal solution because in most cases you need some kind of printing adhesive. I tried the glasplate for 1 week on the S5 and then ordered a Filaprint magnetic Switch Plate system by Filafarm for the S5.  (I'm still using the glass plate but only with PA and PC). The magnetic printing plates are so much more practical and I don't constantly cut my fingers on the S5 metal clamps.

 

I purchased the S5 only because of one major feature, the swappable print heads. I absolutely love this system. If you do not constantly need to swap the nozzles like me, then there are definitly better printers out there. The Raise3D Pro2 e.g. is a nice machine, that comes  with an aluminium build plate, has a closed chamber and better mechanics. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by mkaj2019

[Travis7s 25]

3 hours ago, mkaj2019 said:

 

Are you trying to compare a 40k printer with a 5k printer? 

The Onyx One started at $3500 and would probably be more comparable to Ultimaker, but is it as reliable/consistent as @P3D says?

[Smithy 1,144]

4 hours ago, mkaj2019 said:

then ordered a Filaprint magnetic Switch Plate system by Filafarm for the S5

 

I am thinking about buying the Filaprint Switch Plate. One question, is the auto leveling still working with it and without damaging the surface of the build plate?

[mkaj2019 41]

To be frank, I always cringe when I watch the hot nozzle running into the print Surface. The nozzle leaves barely visible marks, but no dents so far (after ~100 prints). I would love to have a bltouch on my S5 like on my DIY Printer at home. E.g. I want to print with PPprint Polypropylen (which comes way closer to the injection molded PP mechanical properties than the Ultimaker PP) but the specifically designed built surface for PPprint PP is a soft rubber material and therefore not compatible with the Ultimaker bed leveling System. I dont think it is possible to turn it off at the start with some G-Code command, but I also have not tried it yet.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by mkaj2019

[P3D 46]

15 hours ago, Travis7s said:

The Onyx One started at $3500 and would probably be more comparable to Ultimaker, but is it as reliable/consistent as @P3D says?

 

We have a Mark Two in our company, which is (apart from the extra fiber extruder in the Mark Two) mechanically identical to the Onyx One. It delivers very consistent and accurate results. Of course, it isn't perfect either, but the printed dimensions are always very close to those in the CAD file, holes for centering pins or screws also being very accurate out of the box (which they'd better be, since you have no control over the printing profile at all).

 

Of course, MarkForged is in a comfortable position - they only have to deal with two materials, due to their closed system they can charge you quite some extra money for the filament, and they can control every single part of the printing process (apart from the user badly leveling the printer or improperly cleaning/glueing the build plate).

 

On the other hand, Ultimaker can also control every part of the printing process. They make the printers, the software and the filament, so it should be possible to provide high-quality profiles that "just work" (instead of just being a starting point for tinkering).

 

Back to Topic: One build plate "material" I really like is Anycubic's Ultrabase. I print PLA and PETG of various manufacturers with my i3 Mega, and I had close to zero adhesion issues while being able to just pick up the parts from the print plate with my hands after it had cooled to ambient temperature. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any possibility to buy such a plate seperately (it is glued to the heating elements), for example to replace the glass plate in an Ultimaker with this.

[P3D 46]

15 minutes ago, mkaj2019 said:

To be frank, I always cringe when I watch the hot nozzle running into the print Surface. The nozzle leaves barely visible marks, but no dents so far (after ~100 prints). I would love to have a bltouch on my S5 like on my DIY Printer at home. E.g. I want to print with PPprint Polypropylen (which comes way closer to the injection molded PP mechanical properties than the Ultimaker PP) but the specifically designed built surface for PPprint PP is a soft rubber material and therefore not compatible with the Ultimaker bed leveling System. I dont think it is possible to turn it off at the start with some G-Code command, but I also have not tried it yet.

 

 

The PPrint material you mention is quite interesting, so that material is approx. three times as stiff as the UM PP, if I interpret the data sheets correctly.

 

Can't you just disable automatic leveling and use manual leveling?

[mkaj2019 41]

3 minutes ago, P3D said:

 

The PPrint material you mention is quite interesting, so that material is approx. three times as stiff as the UM PP, if I interpret the data sheets correctly.

 

Can't you just disable automatic leveling and use manual leveling?

 

This is unfortunatly not possible with the S5, as far as i know.

[P3D 46]

10 minutes ago, mkaj2019 said:

 

This is unfortunatly not possible with the S5, as far as i know.

 

You're right (see this thread: https://community.ultimaker.com/topic/23706-disable-automatic-active-bed-levelling-for-ultimaker-s5)... that's bad, how on earth did UM get the idea that such behaviour (just not offering customers this option) would be acceptable?

 

The more you know, the less appealing UM printers look. Apart from the easy-swap cores, of course.

Edited August 21, 2019 by P3D

[Smithy 1,144]

48 minutes ago, mkaj2019 said:

I dont think it is possible to turn it off at the start with some G-Code command, but I also have not tried it yet.

 

Thanks!

And no, for the S5 it is not possible to turn off the leveling.

 

So maybe I give it a try, I like the idea behind the switching system and I hate to apply, glue, Dimafix, Magigoo or whatever in the meantime.

[SandervG 1,521]

47 minutes ago, P3D said:

 

You're right (see this thread: https://community.ultimaker.com/topic/23706-disable-automatic-active-bed-levelling-for-ultimaker-s5)... that's bad, how on earth did UM get the idea that such behaviour (just not offering customers this option) would be acceptable?

 

The more you know, the less appealing UM printers look. Apart from the easy-swap cores, of course.

 

The more you know, the faster you would understand the motivations behind such a decision. Users are not able to disable active leveling because of the size of the build plate in the Ultimaker S5. On previous generations you could do it manually, but this was a more forgiving process due to the build plates being smaller. With the larger build volume users may want to print larger objects, which require even longer unattended operations. With the expanded material portfolio, users are now also able to use a larger variety of materials, which may require more delicate bed levelling too.

So all this considered: It is crucial for your user experience that your bed is properly levelled and have good adhesion.

 

The most reliable way to ensure good levelling is to have the Ultimaker S5 do it. Every time. That's one part of the printing process that we took more control over, to ensure reliability. 

 

[Cymon 5]

3 hours ago, SandervG said:

The most reliable way to ensure good levelling is to have the Ultimaker S5 do it. Every time. That's one part of the printing process that we took more control over, to ensure reliability. 

 

Given that there are multiple threads complaining about the autolevel not working on the UM S5 and UM3 (including our S5, see below) doesn't speak for reliability. At the moment I'm counting on it being a firmware bug and I can work around by switching the printer off and on again, but that's not really worth the money spent...

 

Also, when giving the customer the opportunity to turn AL off they are responsible for successful large prints. Why don't you just say "fine, if you want to level by hand you can't blame us when your large print fails, just turn it on again", what is the problem with that?

 

By the way, I am printing with a slightly but proven to be bend glass plate at home for almost two years and nothing has failed. If you engineered the bed carrier the right way (unlike those chinese people who invented my printer, which is the case as I can judge from what I see) and the manufacturer of your glass beds is not completely unfit, there should be no problems ever.

 

There are some other negative points with the S5, which I didn't expect from a high quality printer like that. But going back to the topic of this thread, I think a other-material build plate would be the next logical step to make the Ultimaker printers defending their place on the market. Printing on pure glass and having to fumble around with glue, tape or hairspray is not state of the art in 3D-printing anymore as there are many manufacturers who provide way better solutions for little money.

 

 

[SandervG 1,521]

52 minutes ago, Cymon said:

Given that there are multiple threads complaining about the autolevel not working on the UM S5 and UM3 (including our S5, see below) doesn't speak for reliability. At the moment I'm counting on it being a firmware bug and I can work around by switching the printer off and on again, but that's not really worth the money spent...

 

 

 

There is of course always a chance that someone runs into a technical issue, regardless of the invested development time. And I like to think that in those scenarios we're always able to help a customer out. If you are having such issues, I would recommend to get in touch with your reseller or our sales partner in your local region, if you have not already.

But that is all besides the point that my response was an answer to why the active bed levelling could not be disabled. Because bed levelling/adhesion lies at the foundation of a successful print, and on a build volume as like on the Ultimaker S5, doing it yourself manually became more crucial and difficult. 

[Smithy 1,144]

I love the bed leveling at the UM3 and S5. I've never had a problem with it and it's reliably performed at every print. This has the big advantage for me that I can take out the glass plate or change it without controlling the leveling afterwards, the printer does that for me. That's also one reason why I hardly ever remove the glass plate from the UM2Go because I find manual leveling tedious.

 

I know that others see it completely differently, but for me it makes my job easier.

 

 

 

[Link 34]

I have to agree, I've never had a single problem with the bed level and it's by far the best auto level I have used on any printer, it's just works every time. Not sure what issue people could be having. It's one of the best features !

[mkaj2019 41]

How do you guys adjust the z-offset for the first layer? My nozzle is always too close and I have to reduce the initial layer flow to 88% to get no overextrusion.

[Cymon 5]

15 hours ago, Smithy said:

This has the big advantage for me that I can take out the glass plate or change it without controlling the leveling afterwards, the printer does that for me. That's also one reason why I hardly ever remove the glass plate from the UM2Go because I find manual leveling tedious.

Before I switched the company, I worked with a UM2+ and a UM2Extended+ in the old company and we removed the glass plate after every print and only did leveling every 20 prints or something like that. We never had any issues and as this was the first UM encounter for me I was really amazed by how the UMs keep being leveled over this long time.

 

16 hours ago, SandervG said:

There is of course always a chance that someone runs into a technical issue, regardless of the invested development time.

Please don't misunderstand me, I think the auto level feature is great and I know how much time and effort it takes to develop something like that. It's very useful and as Link also said the best auto level I know, but the argument why the user can't switch it off just because "manual level is more crucial and difficult with bigger volume" is quite a weak one in my opinion.

 

Anyways, that's not the topic of this thread and I will keep you updated in my thread about the issue.
Keep up the good work! :)

[P3D 46]

Regardless of how well the Autoleveling normally works for some people, depriving the customers of the option to turn it off is not very smart. One of the appeals of UM printers is the open ecosystem. When you can't, for example, print with a different build surface that the UM leveling approach isn't compatible with, then that negates that whole appeal, meaning you'd probably be better off buying some other printer, as with the S5 you're pretty much restricted to the original glass plate.

 

By the way: I don't even want to begin to count all the times a print just didn't start because some stupid plastic drooling out of the second nozzle during the (quite lengthy) leveling process ruined it all!

Edited August 22, 2019 by P3D

[Link 34]

1 hour ago, mkaj2019 said:

How do you guys adjust the z-offset for the first layer? My nozzle is always too close and I have to reduce the initial layer flow to 88% to get no overextrusion.

Use the z offset plugin 

[mkaj2019 41]

1 hour ago, Link said:

Use the z offset plugin 

 

 

Thanks for the hint! Have you tried it on an S5? 

[Link 34]

37 minutes ago, mkaj2019 said:

 

 

Thanks for the hint! Have you tried it on an S5? 

 Yes, use it all the time on my S5

[Link 34]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:23 PM, SandervG said:

Hi @Link, we're sorry to hear you have not received the additional build plate yet. I don't think you have to chase down the reseller, but if it makes feel more at ease knowing they haven't forgotten about you, you should definitely feel free to reach out to them. 

 

I'll also reach out to them to see where they stand. How has your Ultimaker been working for you in the mean time? Hope it helps, have a great day! 

 

Coming back to this topic @SandervG I still haven't either heard anything nor recieved my second glass plate, could you please update ?

[Jman15x 4]

Just stumbled upon this thread by accident. We're supposed to get 2 glass build plate with the s5?? We just got ours a few months ago and it only came with one...

[Smithy 1,144]

I am not sure, but I don't think that the S5 will be generally shipped with 2 build plates. It was only for the older printers that were sold with glass and aluminum plates and they had a kind of voucher in the box for the aluminum one. These customers got a second glass plate.

[jkcz 12]

9 hours ago, Smithy said:

I am not sure, but I don't think that the S5 will be generally shipped with 2 build plates. It was only for the older printers that were sold with glass and aluminum plates and they had a kind of voucher in the box for the aluminum one. These customers got a second glass plate.

Our first S5 (July 2019) came with one glass plate and a little card with a link to sign up for an Aluminum plate which I did and never got a response, I tried to contact Ultimaker directly and also received no answer. The reseller said I'm not eligible for a second glass plate even though I understand I should be. Our second S5 (Feb 2020) came with 2 glass plates in the box.