NO Aluminum build plate.

[joestefano 6]

Replacing the aluminum build plate with a 2nd glass plate (which I already have) does not seem to be a fair exchange. I think there should be an option to select a credit equivalent for other accessories or filament. The cost of the aluminum plate has to exceed the cost of a glass one. 

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi @joestefano , thank you for your post. With a second build plate you increase your uptime and are capable of printing the engineering materials that we offer. It is what the aluminum bed would have provided, and it is what this additional glass plate provides. I realize that releasing an aluminum bed would have been the preferred outcome of our developments, unfortunately, it did not offer the reliability we are after. And that is why we decided not to release it to our users. We feel that a second glass plate offers you the workflow that another build plate would have provided too.

I would recommend to visit our material resource pages to find the 3D print guidelines that are required for our materials if you have not already.

 

Our apologies for the inconvenience, and thank you for your time. 

[joestefano 6]

I understand. What I would like ultimaker to consider is offering a choice of the glass plate or a credit for other accessories. I already have a 2nd glass plate I don't use.

[zungara 10]

same to me

[HardWater526 4]

I am sure they figured out that everything but Mic6 or ATP5 aluminum warps into a potato chip after a couple thermal cycles, and even the $$$ Mic6 will warp eventually at the thickness of an S5 build plate.

 

I am curious what they hoped to accomplish with the aluminum build plate though. Usually a sheet of PEI (also $$$ at that size) goes on the aluminum for ABS and polycarbonate adhesion, but i had heard no mention of that from them. Were they planning on running straight on the AL? I am not sure about the heat transfer of PEI stuck to glass, but I may try it with the second glass build plate i'll be getting. 

[gr5 2,177]

I'm not sure about PEI but whatever is used must be "high temp" because auto leveling is performed with the nozzle "at temp" for the current material. This is because if there is even 0.1mm of solid material on the tip of the nozzle then it will throw off autoleveling.  So it's done at a temp where the material is properly melted.

 

The other problem is that the heaters for the bed and nozzle have to be off during autolevel because the EM (electromagnetic) noise interferes with autolevel.  Personally, if I were the programmer who wrote autolevel I would turn the bed on briefly in between each leveling point and if the temp got too low I would even pause the procedure to reheat the nozzle.  Also I wouldn't autolevel every single point on the bed if the part to be printed was small.  Just autolevel for the area needed for the print.  Anyway...

 

According to google PEI glass temp (softening temp) is at 217C.  So maybe it's possible to do the autolevel with PEI if you keep the temp of the nozzles below 200C or so and modify the autolevel procedure a little bit.

 

Also maybe the tip could be "wiped" along the edge of the print bed as part of the initial leveling procedure?  not sure if this is a good idea or not.

 

[Shadowman 53]

I have many thoughts at this moment with the most significant being that sending me another glass build plate and expecting that this is an acceptable alternative is both wrong and “unacceptable”.

 

The aluminum build plate was marketed as a uniquely developed piece for the S5 as such added both value and cost to the printer.

 

I am well beyond unhappy with this situation.

 

Something far more significant needs to be offered for “our” collective consideration as the “uniquely developed” aluminum build plate was not a hopeful or a maybe but rather an item presented as an S5 exclusive and included with the purchase. Sending all a blind email to be followed with a $20 piece of glass is total BS.

 

Period........

 

https://ultimaker.com/en/resources/52578-unboxing

Edited December 19, 2018 by Shadowman
Additional

[RudydG 62]

Really??

The aluplate was one of my reasons to buy this expensive machine. And ofcourse, i bought a second plate at the moment i bought the S5.

So at least, give us an option to spend a the money on something else. (my guess is the S5 user already has a spare glass plate)

This does not make me happy!

 

[SandervG 1,521]

Just now, RudydG said:

Really??

The aluplate was one of my reasons to buy this expensive machine. And ofcourse, i bought a second plate at the moment i bought the S5.

So at least, give us an option to spend a the money on something else. (my guess is the S5 user already has a spare glass plate)

This does not make me happy!

 

Hi Rudy, thank you for your message. I think everyone would have loved to see a different outcome. But still I believe this is better than releasing a product we do not fully support. I will send you a DM and we can look into an alternative compensation that would also add value for you as a user. Our apologies for the inconvenience. 

[ScanHD 32]

17 minutes ago, SandervG said:

Hi Rudy, thank you for your message. I think everyone would have loved to see a different outcome. But still I believe this is better than releasing a product we do not fully support. I will send you a DM and we can look into an alternative compensation that would also add value for you as a user. Our apologies for the inconvenience. 

Can I also receive that DM. 

Thanks

[JDesign 0]

I hope I can also be DM'd about another form of compensation as I was also hoping for the aluplate and a further glass one will not be of much use to me too.

[SandervG 1,521]

no problem, I'll send you a DM

[HardWater526 4]

^ Same here please.

[zungara 10]

Same here

[nubis 0]

Same here. I have purchased two spare glass plates already, so that I have a collection of three.

I really don't need another glass plate, this really isn't a proper way to compensate early adopters of your flagship product.

 

[SandervG 1,521]

I will send you a DM. Thank you all for your time and understanding. 

[JohnInOttawa 104]

@SandervG, you have a tough job some days.

 

I think it is great to show transparency that the attempt to create this feature simply did not go as expected.

I think it is also appropriate to thank those who have purchased the S5.

In terms of understanding, it is a two way street.  The users of the S5 are, from what I can tell, able to understand the technical challenge.  The other side, for UM leadership to truly appreciate what this change means to the user base, seems to still be a work in progress. At least I hope it is still in progress.

 

A second glass plate might have been an appropriate goodwill offering for the delayed aluminum plate, at least for the early adopters who have been waiting the longest.   Holding the price constant going forward and substituting with a second glass plate?  Well, that gets complicated.

 

Considering that the S5 was aimed at professional users, I presume that, as in my case, there would have been a cost/benefit analysis behind nearly every purchase of this unit.  Why an S5 and not a UM3 or UM3 extended for thousands less?  We still see that discussion as active this week. 

 

I can't speak for anyone else.  My own decision for the S5 was very much a 'wait and see' cycle.  Honestly, what I was waiting for was whether the aluminum plate offered damage-free printing of certain materials that tend to chip my glass, or better adhesion of some of the exotics that the S5 also supported.   I had not yet made a case for the extra build volume. It really came down to that plate.  So, in my case, the $3300 (CDN) premium of the S5 over the UM3 ($2200 over the UM3X) just does not add up.  And believe me, I wanted it to.

 

I imagine you guys will still sell many S5's, one more sale here or there will not affect the bottom line.  I fully get the frustration the technical team must be feeling and you are sandwiched as the messenger.  Still, to me, it feels like the marketers still want a price premium without offering the level of premium content any more.   I wonder what that means for the future.

 

I'll leave it there: again, I know this is not an outcome Ultimaker desired and I have no sense that this is anything other than an honest effort that ended in frustration.  The discussion is really, how best to move forward.  I know you are listening and I hope you're supported as you pass the feedback up the line.

 

All the best

John

 

 

 

 

[neotko 1,417]

5 hours ago, SandervG said:

I will send you a DM. Thank you all for your time and understanding. 

 

Does that means that ONLY who complains gets something better than a glass? I really think UM should do better and release a proper release note instead of hiding this on the forum.

[SandervG 1,521]

No, it means that if you already have a second glass plate or a second glass plate is of no additional value to you as a user we can look into an alternative that does add value. I think it's good that we're open to conversation and permit ourselves a flexible and reasonable attitude in working towards a solution that works for both parties involved.  

[neotko 1,417]

42 minutes ago, SandervG said:

No, it means that if you already have a second glass plate or a second glass plate is of no additional value to you as a user we can look into an alternative that does add value. I think it's good that we're open to conversation and permit ourselves a flexible and reasonable attitude in working towards a solution that works for both parties involved.  

 

Then send emails to every customer that has one inviting them to join this post and give you feedback. Also, stop packaging new UM S5 with a second glass and wait for a decision and make it public not just on a forum post. Not gonna happen right?

 

Prove me wrong please, show the face and stop saying a second glass is enough compared to a precision aluminum plate, that for example one from misumi of 7mm thickness and top flatness goes for 100-120€ minimum distributor price. So?

[SandervG 1,521]

Neo, joining the conversation is fine but if don't know the facts please ask what is what before making claims. All users who have registered for a build plate did receive an email, a blog post is shared with those recipients containing more information and we are updating the content regarding the Ultimaker S5 and adding an additional glass plate to the packaging. That is the decision that is made and this is the process that followed. And like I said, if you feel this direction does not work for you please reach out to me and we can see if we can find a common ground we can both move forward on. 

 

[Shadowman 53]

6 hours ago, JohnInOttawa said:

@SandervG, you have a tough job some days.

 

I think it is great to show transparency that the attempt to create this feature simply did not go as expected.

I think it is also appropriate to thank those who have purchased the S5.

In terms of understanding, it is a two way street.  The users of the S5 are, from what I can tell, able to understand the technical challenge.  The other side, for UM leadership to truly appreciate what this change means to the user base, seems to still be a work in progress. At least I hope it is still in progress.

 

A second glass plate might have been an appropriate goodwill offering for the delayed aluminum plate, at least for the early adopters who have been waiting the longest.   Holding the price constant going forward and substituting with a second glass plate?  Well, that gets complicated.

 

Considering that the S5 was aimed at professional users, I presume that, as in my case, there would have been a cost/benefit analysis behind nearly every purchase of this unit.  Why an S5 and not a UM3 or UM3 extended for thousands less?  We still see that discussion as active this week. 

 

I can't speak for anyone else.  My own decision for the S5 was very much a 'wait and see' cycle.  Honestly, what I was waiting for was whether the aluminum plate offered damage-free printing of certain materials that tend to chip my glass, or better adhesion of some of the exotics that the S5 also supported.   I had not yet made a case for the extra build volume. It really came down to that plate.  So, in my case, the $3300 (CDN) premium of the S5 over the UM3 ($2200 over the UM3X) just does not add up.  And believe me, I wanted it to.

 

I imagine you guys will still sell many S5's, one more sale here or there will not affect the bottom line.  I fully get the frustration the technical team must be feeling and you are sandwiched as the messenger.  Still, to me, it feels like the marketers still want a price premium without offering the level of premium content any more.   I wonder what that means for the future.

 

I'll leave it there: again, I know this is not an outcome Ultimaker desired and I have no sense that this is anything other than an honest effort that ended in frustration.  The discussion is really, how best to move forward.  I know you are listening and I hope you're supported as you pass the feedback up the line.

 

All the best

John

 

 

 

 

Well stated John; I appreciate your thoughts as shared.

 

The only significant difference between that which you conveyed versus that which I did was consummating the purchase.

 

I believed (as all others) what I was told with the aluminum build plate being a “pivotal” reason that I purchased the Ultimaker S5. You on the other hand waited for it to appear.

 

Ultimaker’s position is wrong on many levels; I agree, as I shared long ago that a second glass build plate should have been blindly shipped to all Ultimaker S5 owners long ago as a sign of support for the delay.

 

Their present offer is ridiculous. We are told that the glass build plate will serve the purpose; this may or may not be the case regardless; it does not address the issue nor their failure to perform.

 

For myself the aluminum build plate was a technological advancement; one that affords me “options”. 

 

Like you; the larger build area was of little importance but rather I was sold the most  technically advanced Ultimaker printer offered; one that was “fully” developed over a protracted period of time for the businesses. 

 

At the onset asked why I should consider a $3K USD higher priced printer and was told by both Ultimaker and two distributors that one of the most significant unique features of the Ultimaker S5 was the aluminum build plate.

 

Now as a poor but viable example I share that I own several cars; “all” of which will take me from point A to point B and yet each is different and were purchased for those differences.

 

So to SandervG’s comments about how a second glass build plate is somehow a magnanimous Ultimaker concession; one that we should all be happy and giddy about simply “blows me away”.

 

To have Ultimaker say and expect me to accept them saying; sorry but you won’t be receiving the significant and unique feature that we sold you is unacceptable.

 

No one, including myself were told that the aluminum build plate might happen akin to the unused port at the rear of the Ultimaker S5 that they did make this clear but rather, the included contents sheet within the box as well as the owners manual and the touch screen menu make clear that my understanding was and is correct.

 

I bought into the Ultimaker product line because I believed and trusted that which I was told; this after nearly 6 weeks of pre-purchase conversations and demos.

 

After a day of thinking about this situation I am even more troubled when compared to how I felt when I received the blind email from Ultimaker.

 

Lastly, it was brought to my attention that my saying in another thread that I was lied to about the aluminum build plate was a bit harsh because it inferred that best intentions weren’t made by Ultimaker. I say BS; I was lied to when I was told that the a Ultimaker S5 came with a unique, fully developed aluminum build plate when in fact it was at best; a work in progress and “not” a product able to be sold.

 

This by all standards is truly a “black and white” situation and includes a lie.

 

I encourage all to watch this video as it was created with the blessing of Ultimaker. It is long with a bunch of glad handing and stage setting in the beginning so if you jump to the 10 minute mark and then begin watching  you will hear the story of the Ultimaker S5 that was solicited/marketed by Ultimaker and how the Ultimaker S5 was presented to the world as Ultimaker’s first no comprise premier business class 3D printer and in part this story ultimately convinced me that this was the 3D printer to purchase.

 

Included within the video is a lengthy conversation with very clear, concise, and specific comments about Ultimaker’s uniquely developed aluminum build plate specifically for the Ultimaker S5 and of its many benefits.

 

At the end of the video the Ultimaker Team member is asked to share the 5 most significant features unique to the Ultimaker S5 and “aluminum build plate” was one of them.

 

You will also heat how the Ultimaker S5 was in use for over 1 1/2 years to insure that it was ready to be presented to the business user.

 

So Ultimaker asks; why am I (are we) very upset.

 

Give me/us a break and please don’t waste my/our time asking such a rhetorical question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Shadowman
Additional

[alunna 0]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:35 PM, gr5 said:

I'm not sure about PEI but whatever is used must be "high temp" because auto leveling is performed with the nozzle "at temp" for the current material. This is because if there is even 0.1mm of solid material on the tip of the nozzle then it will throw off autoleveling.  So it's done at a temp where the material is properly melted.

 

The other problem is that the heaters for the bed and nozzle have to be off during autolevel because the EM (electromagnetic) noise interferes with autolevel.  Personally, if I were the programmer who wrote autolevel I would turn the bed on briefly in between each leveling point and if the temp got too low I would even pause the procedure to reheat the nozzle.  Also I wouldn't autolevel every single point on the bed if the part to be printed was small.  Just autolevel for the area needed for the print.  Anyway...

 

According to google PEI glass temp (softening temp) is at 217C.  So maybe it's possible to do the autolevel with PEI if you keep the temp of the nozzles below 200C or so and modify the autolevel procedure a little bit.

 

Also maybe the tip could be "wiped" along the edge of the print bed as part of the initial leveling procedure?  not sure if this is a good idea or not.

 

We have used PEI on glass for a little more than 2 years in Ultimaker 3. We had a separate glass plate without PEI to use for auto leveling until I accidentally auto leveled with PEI about a year ago. We have been using the auto leveling with the PEI on ever since. The only thing I have found is that you need to manually level the bed on the low side. By that, I mean that the screws you turn to manually level the  bed can't be turned out very far.