Air Manager Firmware

[robinmdh 100]

4 hours ago, DidierKlein said:

So to be clear, the latest firmware enables the air manager but only at full speed (100%).

NO

 

The air-manager goes to 100% whenever hotends/buildplate are hot, unless you are in a print that is sliced with the newest version of Cura. This is simply a safety feature.

so @kotsoym's initial video is at least explained.

 

The hot plate warning just pops up if the buildplate is above 60 degrees. It itself doesn't change anything, it's just informative.

[kotsoym 0]

@robinmdh the air manager goes 100% from the beginning.. Even when the build plate starts to warm up air manager works at 100 % which is wrong..

 

At least it should start at 0 % and when the build plate is hot to start working at certain percentage...
I am slicing the prints with the 4.4 Cura what do you mean by saying its a safety feature?? 

 

My question is : Does the machine ( Ultimaker S5 ) has a sensor inside the chamber for the temperature?
If not you will have real problem to tune it I think.. Just my thoughts.. 

[robinmdh 100]

2 hours ago, Roli4711 said:

Then I wonder why not an intermediate version of the firmware was released to activate only the Air Manager. I think a lot of us use only the Air Manager and the smaller part also the Material Station.

 

 

 

Because we can't stop people from putting air-manages on top of pro bundles, and when you have an air-manager and it doesn't spin it's not good so it was either a partial release, longer wait, etc now if you use the latest Cura it does throttle down the fan.

 

2 teams have been working on this, one dealing with the air-manager and the other one with the material station, both are high prio.

[Roli4711 11]

1 minute ago, robinmdh said:

 

Because we can't stop people from putting air-manages on top of pro bundles, and when you have an air-manager and it doesn't spin it's not good so it was either a partial release, longer wait, etc now if you use the latest Cura it does throttle down the fan.

 

2 teams have been working on this, one dealing with the air-manager and the other one with the material station, both are high prio.

 

I don't use the Air Manager until yesterday evening. The AM was on the top, but always open and not connected.

 

In September, you make a fantastic and loud introducing of the newest thing of Ultimaker, NOW AVAILABLE!!! (AM + MS). And then.... OK, that could happen. 

But if you need about 2 month for release the "correct" Firmware why the AM isn't running correctly? 

 

Finally a statement from Ultimaker which is not comming from Sander and then such a big BlaBla. In this case (Post): Less would be definitely more.

 

 

[SandervG 1,521]

To be specific, the fan turns on when either the build plate or the print cores go above 50ºC. This is because at that point filament can start to emit UFP, which the Air Manager is suppose to catch. If everything is at room temperature, it should not be running. 

 

Some more context; the desired fan speed is being calculated by a formula of different values. At the beginning of a print the Air manager measures the ambient temperature, it knows the set build plate temperature and which build volume temperature should be ideal for a specific material. Consequently it knows which fan speed is necessary. The existing firmware uses a more sensitive table where it switches to 100% most of the times, partially to not let too much heat build up. In the near future it will be dialed down to more accurate values through updates. Which could mean (to give you an idea) that during a print it would run at 40% for example. 

 

@Gabriele, we've tested with several materials and profiles and we didn't notice any decrease in adhesion. Can you share with me (can also be via DM) what material you are printing with and with what profile? Do you use any adhesives? Anything else relevant? 

 

Like Robinmdh says; the hot plate warning is a new safety warning. It is a live registration of the temperature of your build plate. When the build plate reaches 60ºC it will start to show. So perhaps with or without the Air Manager just pushed it above the 60ºC. 

 

It is possible that the fan will work without a filter. In the future it's likely that a warning will be included, but because it is also possible to connect the Air Manager to an external ventilation/exhaust system this is a possibility we aim to keep open. 

 

@zungara, I will take a look at your log file and let you know if anything stands out.

 

I am not sure if user @Roli4711 was implying that the Air Manager was altering values in his printing profiles, but this should not be possible. It can read it, and it should process it to set the right fan speed. But right now the formula is set to run rather a bit too fast than too slow, to catch all particles and keep too much heat out. 

 

Hopefully this has answered most of your questions. Please let me know if there is anything else we can help with. 

[Roli4711 11]

5 minutes ago, SandervG said:

 

I am not sure if user @Roli4711 was implying that the Air Manager was altering values in his printing profiles, but this should not be possible. It can read it, and it should process it to set the right fan speed. But right now the formula is set to run rather a bit too fast than too slow, to catch all particles. 

 

No, no values was changed automatic. I've changed the value after the adhersion was not good with the old values. And now, after I've changed the values, it works properly (but noisy). I hope, the next firmware update will be comming asap. 

[SandervG 1,521]

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't sure if that is what you meant, thank you for clarifying. Happy to hear that you got it back up and running with the Air Manager, albeit with some changed values. (For my feedback to the testing teams; can you share with me (possibly via DM) with what filament and what profile settings you are printing with? Do you use any other adhesive?) 

[robinmdh 100]

2 hours ago, kotsoym said:

@robinmdh the air manager goes 100% from the beginning.. Even when the build plate starts to warm up air manager works at 100 % which is wrong..

 

At least it should start at 0 % and when the build plate is hot to start working at certain percentage...
I am slicing the prints with the 4.4 Cura what do you mean by saying its a safety feature?? 

 

My question is : Does the machine ( Ultimaker S5 ) has a sensor inside the chamber for the temperature?
If not you will have real problem to tune it I think.. Just my thoughts.. 

The air-manger measures the temperature, and if it has a "target build volume temperature" it does determine rotation speed based upon that temperature, but like @SandervG said:

2 hours ago, SandervG said:

But right now the formula is set to run rather a bit too fast than too slow, to catch all particles. 

A safety feature to not melt any prints unintentionally, if not target build volume temperature is given(by the print-job): 100% on is the decision, at least right now.
But I'm working on the material-station so I'm not the expert on the air-manager.

Though I've never fount the air-manager to loud apparently my colleagues disagree so my tolerance to noise may be a bit off the norm...

 

Good info from @SandervG

Edited December 10, 2019 by robinmdh

[zungara 10]

@DidierKlein: Good to know. I thought you are from Ultimaker or are skeeking for Ultimaker:

@SandervG: I will check the behavior later, but i think the fan starts directly on full speed switching the printer on. When a print is finished the fan is running on full speed. It will not lower speed until switch off the printer (confirming removing the print has no impact)

[zungara 10]

@SandervG: Update: You are right the fan starts not directly.

I have measured the loudness:

Max 73 dB-A

AVG 56 db-A

Intervall: 5 min.

 

 

[PaulK 14]

5 hours ago, SandervG said:

Some more context; the desired fan speed is being calculated by a formula of different values. At the beginning of a print the Air manager measures the ambient temperature, it knows the set build plate temperature and which build volume temperature should be ideal for a specific material. Consequently it knows which fan speed is necessary.

 

I'd really like some more information here. This sounds like it is essentially open loop control? It does not continue to measure the chamber temperature and adjust as it goes?

I know that the primary state purpose is filtering the air but my primary purpose (and I'm willing to bet lots of others) is to keep dust out (the place the printer is located is sometimes very dusty) and still control the chamber temperature (currently I have o remember to keep the doors open when I print PLA, for example). My current "hat" is very busted up and I have an order in for the Air Manager in the hopes of a replacement, but I really want the chamber to warm up properly; if it is kinda just guessing at an airspeed, and prioritizes air movement over temperature, I'll likely need to buy another had and add my own fan to it (and maybe a small heater). I really wish I could interface to the printer and pick up settings so it wouldn't be a manual process, but alas, no information on how to do that.

 

tl;dr will air manager fan speed be open loop or closed loop for temperature? 

[SubmarinePilot 0]

5 hours ago, robinmdh said:

 

A safety feature to not melt any prints unintentionally, if not target build volume temperature is given(by the print-job): 100% on is the decision, at least right now.

I think this is what is anticipated.  Sounds like there needs to be fine tuning on the fan speed end.  In a production environment with 3 Pro bundles we need to not have a jet engine room.  I would expect to slice in Cura, send to Ultimaker S5, and have it dictate the fan speed needed without having it sound like a 747.  I understand some material will need a faster fan speed to properly capture particulates.  

 

For example with regular PLA:

 

If previously without the air manager the Ultimaker S5 was printing properly, it seems it does not need 75% speed from the air manager throughout the print.  It seems the air manager needs to better determine what's going on inside the chamber.

Edited December 10, 2019 by SubmarinePilot

[SandervG 1,521]

18 hours ago, PaulK said:

 

 .... - if it is kinda just guessing at an airspeed, and prioritizes air movement over temperature, I'll likely need to buy another had and add my own fan to it (and maybe a small heater). I really wish I could interface to the printer and pick up settings so it wouldn't be a manual process, but alas, no information on how to do that.

 

tl;dr will air manager fan speed be open loop or closed loop for temperature? 

 

It is open loop, but it doesn't just guess an air speed. It measures ambient temperature, and it retrieves build plate temperature and material specific values from Cura. How would it prioritize air movement over temperature? By moving the air you control the temperature too. 

[SandervG 1,521]

17 hours ago, SubmarinePilot said:

I think this is what is anticipated.  Sounds like there needs to be fine tuning on the fan speed end.  In a production environment with 3 Pro bundles we need to not have a jet engine room.  I would expect to slice in Cura, send to Ultimaker S5, and have it dictate the fan speed needed without having it sound like a 747.  I understand some material will need a faster fan speed to properly capture particulates.  

 

For example with regular PLA:

 

If previously without the air manager the Ultimaker S5 was printing properly, it seems it does not need 75% speed from the air manager throughout the print.  It seems the air manager needs to better determine what's going on inside the chamber.

 

That is correct, in the sense that more profiles will be added and will be automatically selected based on your print material. The Air manager has more affects than just filtering air. It is also keeping dust out, and heat in. The heat that it keeps in also benefit some materials, but not when it is too much. That is why with PLA the fan runs faster, because PLA needs less heat in the build volume. So the fan needs to work harder to get that out and maintain a correct temperature. Hope this helps! 

[PaulK 14]

4 hours ago, SandervG said:

 

It is open loop, but it doesn't just guess an air speed. It measures ambient temperature, and it retrieves build plate temperature and material specific values from Cura. How would it prioritize air movement over temperature? By moving the air you control the temperature too. 

 

Well, if it assumes initial conditions (ambient temperature) will stay the same for the entire print (possibly days), i'd call that guessing 🙂 Seriously though, there is no way to even remotely nail the fan speed perfectly to hit the right temp over a very long print, how can this possibly get a remotely accurate chamber temperature over a long period without feedback?

 

The prioritizing air movement thing was going by statements regarding about ensuring particles are removed. For example, from the description of intended operation, I doubt the algorithm would leave the fan entirely off until a warm chamber temperature happened. In some sense, you can afford to start a little cool, because the bed is close to the print at the beginning, but I don't have confidence that the air manager will hit even the stated air temperatures over long periods, i.e. large prints, where warmer chambers have the most benefit (if you aren't printing PLA). I suspect I'll be canceling my order 😞 and have to spin something else (or keep the air manager, but don't plug it in instead plug it into my own controller...)

Edited December 11, 2019 by PaulK

[Elfonerio 5]

5 hours ago, PaulK said:

 

Well, if it assumes initial conditions (ambient temperature) will stay the same for the entire print (possibly days), i'd call that guessing 🙂 Seriously though, there is no way to even remotely nail the fan speed perfectly to hit the right temp over a very long print, how can this possibly get a remotely accurate chamber temperature over a long period without feedback?

 

The prioritizing air movement thing was going by statements regarding about ensuring particles are removed. For example, from the description of intended operation, I doubt the algorithm would leave the fan entirely off until a warm chamber temperature happened. In some sense, you can afford to start a little cool, because the bed is close to the print at the beginning, but I don't have confidence that the air manager will hit even the stated air temperatures over long periods, i.e. large prints, where warmer chambers have the most benefit (if you aren't printing PLA). I suspect I'll be canceling my order 😞 and have to spin something else (or keep the air manager, but don't plug it in instead plug it into my own controller...)

What exactly are you printing?  I have the same concerns and I have the pro bundle on order.  For me my concern is ABS, I would like to print that with a little better temp control.  I have what I like to call "Reverse Warping" where the center of a large flat print bows up AFTER I remove the part.  So I figure more stable temps would solve that issue.  My next option is to got with an actively heated chamber machine, but those aren't cheap and the flexibility that the S5 has isn't there.

I think if done correctly the air manager would work fine, having the 2 datum points of the ambient and the build plate temp, you could estimate the build chamber temp/fan speed pretty accurately.  Unless this thing is in a garage or something and there is wide temp swings.

I figure there isn't an internal temp probe, because of patent infringements, but that's just me guessing.  But for the price the air manager doesn't seem like a bad investment.

[Dweia 0]

Additionally to the problems mentioned here (Air Manager running full tilt, with corresponding noise - for now I unplugged it), it seems that with the firmware 5.4.24 the internal camera of the Ultimaker S5 doesn't work any more - or at least the stream doesn't.

 

Before, I was able to connect with the browser to "http://ip.address:8080/?action=stream" and could monitor the progress and quality of the print - since the firmware-upgrade I get only "conection denied". I can still contact the webpage of the printer, but can no longer view the camera-stream.

 

Any ideas? Is it possible (or useful) to do a downgrade to firmware 5.2.11? I still have the file lying around somewhere.

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi Dweia, thank you for your message. Did you just unplug it, and leave it on or did you leave it open? 

I have not heard this report before. I'll share it with our product experts. In the meantime, have you tried to reset Cura Connect after the firmware installation? You are free to roll back if you want, but it may not be necessary. Please allow me to get back with you with an update. Thank you for your time, 

[Roli4711 11]

11 minutes ago, SandervG said:

Hi Dweia, thank you for your message. Did you just unplug it, and leave it on or did you leave it open? 

I have not heard this report before. I'll share it with our product experts. In the meantime, have you tried to reset Cura Connect after the firmware installation? You are free to roll back if you want, but it may not be necessary. Please allow me to get back with you with an update. Thank you for your time, 

 

Do you see Sander? The same problem.... FYI: I turn off and on the printer and the second time I reset the Cura connect. Both does not the correct result. It works for several hours, but then the stream is losing.

 

This is the exactly same thing I've wrote you in the PM.

[blackfoxnic 0]

I am getting ER998 as a result of this firmware update. It happens when I attempt to wake the control from the splash screen overlay - e.g. when attempting to make adjustments in the middle of a print or any other instance one would "wake" from the splash screen while a print is happening. Is it possible to just roll back to previous stable as I don't even have the air handler, etc.

[akke 0]

9 hours ago, blackfoxnic said:

I am getting ER998 as a result of this firmware update. It happens when I attempt to wake the control from the splash screen overlay - e.g. when attempting to make adjustments in the middle of a print or any other instance one would "wake" from the splash screen while a print is happening. Is it possible to just roll back to previous stable as I don't even have the air handler, etc.

I have exactly the same issue since upgrading!

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi @akke and @blackfoxnic, one of our product experts has reached out to you via a DM to collect some more details. Hopefully this will help, thank you for notifying us. If necessary, you can roll back if you want yes. 

To be sure, you are both running 5.4.24 now? 

[akke 0]

@SandervG

 

Hi Sander, I answered the DM already. 

And yes, I'm running 5.4.24.

 

Can you send more details on how to go back to 5.2.11?

[SandervG 1,521]

Yes, I will also send the instructions via DM. 

[Dweia 0]

20 hours ago, SandervG said:

Hi Dweia, thank you for your message. Did you just unplug it, and leave it on or did you leave it open?

I have not heard this report before. I'll share it with our product experts. In the meantime, have you tried to reset Cura Connect after the firmware installation?

 

Regarding the Air Manager, I switched the Ultimaker off, unplugged the Air Manager and started Ultimaker again. We had the Air Manager mostly closed since we have this printer, the print worked well (for some things I set the extruder temperature somewhat lower).

 

Regarding the not-working camera-stream, I did not yet do systematic testing. Yesterday I wanted to confirm the state of a print, and couldn't, because the Ultimaker apparently wasn't listening on port 8080. Today when I switched the printer on again, the camera-stream works for now. I'll try to keep an eye on it, and report if I find something systematic about it. (So far I didn't do a reset of Cura Connect.)