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fernando-rocha

Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

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Hello,

I have been trying to print using Dutch Orange PLA/PHA from Colorfabb and this problem always happen.

Some parts are ok, but the bottom and the top skins are bad as you can see.

My settings are:

Print Speed: 40mm/s

Layer Height: 0.1mm

Fill Density 25%

Cooling OFF (On doesnt seem to make a difference anyway)

Infill Speed 60mm/s

Shell Thickness 0.8mm

Temp: 220ºC ~ 230ºC - lower makes it even worse

Bed temp 60ºC

Material flow 110% (i figured more material would supress those 'holes')

Any advice/suggestion? Sorry if I posted at the wrong Section.

thaaanks!

IMG_1365.thumb.JPG.23fd377a9822cd56075d7a2e11b1f343.JPG5a330ec572f96_IMG_13641.thumb.jpg.647b48a269e8660ec782c01ae8e30bde.jpgIMG_1370.thumb.JPG.3e597fab2ee84e78aa280a0994fd9f29.JPGIMG_1368.thumb.JPG.a7c413f59c0960b9bacf0bcf9cd167f3.JPG

Fernando

IMG_1365.thumb.JPG.23fd377a9822cd56075d7a2e11b1f343.JPG

5a330ec572f96_IMG_13641.thumb.jpg.647b48a269e8660ec782c01ae8e30bde.jpg

IMG_1370.thumb.JPG.3e597fab2ee84e78aa280a0994fd9f29.JPG

IMG_1368.thumb.JPG.a7c413f59c0960b9bacf0bcf9cd167f3.JPG

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Try increasing your infill percentage, I like to use above 30, also try slowing down the infill speed I would go anywhere lower then 45% i personally use about 30% speed when printing infill and outer layers.

Also if the last picture is your external layer, try adding more layers to the outer side, about 4 or 5. That should help make the outside a lot more "pretty"

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Try increasing your infill percentage, I like to use above 30, also try slowing down the infill speed I would go anywhere lower then 45% i personally use about 30% speed when printing infill and outer layers.

Also if the last picture is your external layer, try adding more layers to the outer side, about 4 or 5. That should help make the outside a lot more "pretty"

 

I will increase the infill percentage and I have 6 layers on the top, so the outside is pretty. but the first layers are the ones that are bothering me.

look at the first pictures, some lines are incomplete

also if u look closer at that infill 'grid', there are dots and empty spaces, its not making complete lines. check this one I'm printing right now. (same configs just other color of PLA/PHA)

5a330eca06e4e_CapturadeTela2015-06-17s18_01_33.thumb.png.8e6367d7eb0dc706ec0970d79bb4ac34.png

5a330eca06e4e_CapturadeTela2015-06-17s18_01_33.thumb.png.8e6367d7eb0dc706ec0970d79bb4ac34.png

Edited by Guest

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Just wondering if your temperature sensor is faulty, 230C is pretty high for PLA.

Do you get the same results with other types of PLA? I use 210C with the default 100% feed rate.

 

 

Try increasing your infill percentage, I like to use above 30, also try slowing down the infill speed I would go anywhere lower then 45% i personally use about 30% speed when printing infill and outer layers.

Also if the last picture is your external layer, try adding more layers to the outer side, about 4 or 5. That should help make the outside a lot more "pretty"

 

I will increase the infill percentage and I have 6 layers on the top, so the outside is pretty. but the first layers are the ones that are bothering me.

look at the first pictures, some lines are incomplete

 

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Usual suspects since at that mm3 you should be able to print that infill speed use to be:

- Ptfe coupler. Check deformations

- Used abs before. Atomic pulls

- Feeder. Check force, spring

- Bowden. Check it's ok, not moving, well inserted.

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Just wondering if your temperature sensor is faulty, 230C is pretty high for PLA.

Do you get the same results with other types of PLA? I use 210C with the default 100% feed rate.

 

Hey John,

I don't think it's faulty, but I'll check that with some exterior mean of temperature measurement.

230ºC is the limit I guess, I used this brief article to try that. Please check that extrusion volume graphic. Maybe I'm misreading it. As I could see it's the temperature that gets closer to the nominal rates, so I decided to check that since I thought it was an under-extrusion issue.

Thanks

Edited by Guest

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Usual suspects since at that mm3 you should be able to print that infill speed use to be:

- Ptfe coupler. Check deformations

- Used abs before. Atomic pulls

- Feeder. Check force, spring

- Bowden. Check it's ok, not moving, well inserted.

 

What do you mean when you say "Feeder. Check force, spring"? Do you think it might be to loose?

I'll make those verifications neo. Get back to u soon.

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You can also test your extrusion here with the cylinder test

I would drop all speeds to 30mm/s to see how that goes.

230°c for PLA is hot but not too hot i usually print at 210°c even under for Colorfabb. So you might have a problem (weared down Teflon or partially clogged nozzle maybe).

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Check your expert settings. Under [advanced tab] [speed] [infill speed]

and ensure the infill speed option is not at 80mm/s

The defaults are:

Basic Speed 50

advanced

Bottom layer 20

infill speed 80

top/bottom 15

outer shell 30

inner shell 60

I would recommend something like:

Basic Speed 50

advance

Bottom layer 20

infill speed 0

top/bottom 0

outer shell 45

inner shell 0

(note that setting 0 means it'll use your basic speed. which is 50)

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How long do you have your Ultimaker?

If you have printed various materials, or maybe just 'because'.. there could be some junk in your nozzle. Applying the Atomic Method could really help.

Is your feeder ticking / making small steps backwards?

(I will move your topic to Hardware > troubleshooting)

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Also check used filament for grinding or slippage. What are your retraction settings? I ask since on the box with the wall infill holes the outer layers look pretty good, but the infill is all short runs that may not be able to recover after a retraction.

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What tend to do in this scenario is first check that the temperature reading is correct. Heat the nozzle to 210 and press a piece of filament against it. If it melts easily, your temperature is fine.

Next, atomic pull as everyone has suggested. Should not take more than ten minutes if you are doing say 5 pulls. After the atomic pulls, feed a twist-tie (that you get with sandwich bags) through the hot nozzle. It should slide in easily for around 30mm or so. Use tweezers or pliers to feed it in. If there is a blockage, this will help loosen it up.

Next, listen to your extruder. Is the motor going tock every 10-20 seconds? If yes, then you are pushing too much plastic through the nozzle. This means either hotter temps or slower speeds. Or both!

Another thing to do is get a roll of PLA from a different supplier, or try printing with a known-good roll again and see if you have an issue. If only the orange is a problem, you have a dud roll. Nothing unusual about that, but does not happen too often. I have had rolls whose quality changed in mid roll!

Lastly, and this is just for the overly paranoid, bake you PLA. Either put it in your oven at 45C (any hotter, you will get close to the glass transition point and you will cry or will be shot) or what I do is to put it on a hot radiator. Essentially just find somewhere really warm, put some silica gel crystals or a cupful of rice in a box with a lid, and dry out the filament for a few hours or even 24. If you are desperate enough, put it in a pillow case with a cupful of rice and run it in your dryer for a couple of hours. Then try printing again. Occasionally I have bought some plastics that are more hygrophilic than others, and this baking helps.

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Try increasing your infill percentage, I like to use above 30, also try slowing down the infill speed I would go anywhere lower then 45% i personally use about 30% speed when printing infill and outer layers.

Also if the last picture is your external layer, try adding more layers to the outer side, about 4 or 5. That should help make the outside a lot more "pretty"

 

I will increase the infill percentage and I have 6 layers on the top, so the outside is pretty. but the first layers are the ones that are bothering me.

look at the first pictures, some lines are incomplete

also if u look closer at that infill 'grid', there are dots and empty spaces, its not making complete lines. check this one I'm printing right now. (same configs just other color of PLA/PHA)

5a330eca06e4e_CapturadeTela2015-06-17s18_01_33.thumb.png.8e6367d7eb0dc706ec0970d79bb4ac34.png

 

Have you tried lowering retraction amount in the settings? for some time while trying to print pla my ultimaker 2 would mess up while retracting too much ending up with underextrusion. Make sure the settings are in default for retraction both on the machine and in cura

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Ok guys. Thanks for all those answers.

My feeder isnt grinding or ticking, it's just feeding ok as it should I guess.

I have just done the cylinder extrusion test that @Didierklein suggested. It ended like this (using 230ºC):

IMG_1374.thumb.JPG.f52142b396d2032ae7482d39e1d5e365.JPG

IMG_1376.thumb.JPG.86231a8bf559c0ad77bea6501d261e46.JPG

And did the Atomic Method that @SandervG suggested and the filament came out like this all four times I did :

IMG_1378.thumb.JPG.16341026194d1b5ddbfbb15afb13fef2.JPG

I'm thinking the problem might be the filament. I'll try to print under @valcrow settings and see how it goes.

My retraction settings are posted below, I was having issues when the nozzle was moving over the top skin and making lines as it moved so I changed 'Z hop' value to improve that. Am I wrong?

5a330ecf50b7c_CapturadeTela2015-06-18s10_45_39.thumb.png.66d500f83d8b8f50c86589c516e88dfd.png

IMG_1374.thumb.JPG.f52142b396d2032ae7482d39e1d5e365.JPG

IMG_1376.thumb.JPG.86231a8bf559c0ad77bea6501d261e46.JPG

IMG_1378.thumb.JPG.16341026194d1b5ddbfbb15afb13fef2.JPG

5a330ecf50b7c_CapturadeTela2015-06-18s10_45_39.thumb.png.66d500f83d8b8f50c86589c516e88dfd.png

Edited by Guest
(edited to give a reason to retraction value)

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@danilius

-At 210ºC the filament melts easy, no problem with temp reading I guess.

-Did the atomic already, look above please =)

-My extruder isnt ticking.

-The ultimaker silver PLA that comes with it is better than this, i had never had these problems with it. The thing is that I had this problems with both Orange and White PLA/PHA from Colorfabb (maybe Colorfabb isnt a good supplier?)

-hahaha I had a laugh with this method danilius, but it should be my last resort! Thanks for the hydrophilic treatment lesson bro =)

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Colorfabb is good filament its all i use along with UM.

You should really be fine with all settings default out of the box, and just changing layer height and temp.

Try a reset maybe if you are still concerned, but from your print, the layers look flawless. not sure what that weird stuff is on the left of the writing though.

Your atomic pull looks OK from the pics. It may lack solid definition (cant tell from the photo), and kinda looks a bit wobbly. i dont think you are pushing it in hard enough near the cooling period. the tip should be very sharp around all the edges of the interior of the print head. Something like this, ignore the back, my coupler is dead.

nib.thumb.jpg.096832cf8ca9bbfa4ff4c28cc24fc092.jpg

P.S. When you are doing the atomic pull, heat it up to 260, and push the filament in reasnoble hard but not too hard (i actually hold the filament with pliers as i dont like the pressure on my hands) and then when the filament is going through, dial it down to 85. now rather than waiting for the temp to drop and then whipping it out, in my opinion, the most efficient way is to keep pushing it through until its too cool to go in, i usually find it it slows and stops around 170 degrees C for colorfabb PLA. Then leave it and watch it drop to 85 before whipping it out. (do not make a cup of tea as its cooling down as if its stays on 85 for even a few seconds too long you wont be able to get it out and forcing it is a bad idea, your better off reheating and staring again.

nib.thumb.jpg.096832cf8ca9bbfa4ff4c28cc24fc092.jpg

Edited by Guest

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[...]

You should really be fine with all settings default out of the box, and just changing layer height and temp.

Try a reset maybe if you are still concerned, but from your print, the layers look flawless. not sure what that weird stuff is on the left of the writing though.

[...]

 

I don't think we are fine with default settings (for example infill speed changing)

That cilinder looks fine cuz it makes just the "shell", but look at it when it makes a skin:

IMG_1365.thumb.JPG.23fd377a9822cd56075d7a2e11b1f343.JPG

The tip has those sharp edges you say.

After the atomic method and test, I think I can say that my nozzle isnt blocked or dirty or clogged, am I wrong?

btw, I did the atomic method using the way you described, it's the standard I guess.

Thanks =)

IMG_1365.thumb.JPG.23fd377a9822cd56075d7a2e11b1f343.JPG

Edited by Guest

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I think changing infill speeds is a bad idea from everything ive read regarding related problems. I haven't changed any settings and other than speed and temp, and layer height and have no issues with any object. Try with normal settings before you start messing around fine tuning. Get used to how the printer work before tinkering about as you may run into problems and get annoyed that they dont work out.

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I think changing infill speeds is a bad idea from everything ive read regarding related problems. I haven't changed any settings and other than speed and temp, and layer height and have no issues with any object. Try with normal settings before you start messing around fine tuning. Get used to how the printer work before tinkering about as you may run into problems and get annoyed that they dont work out.

 

I have printed using default settings just fine using Ultimaker PLA, for five months. So I started to print using Colorfabb and it happened what I said. I was using default infill speed, retraction, etc. so now I changed to see what will happen, and on. It's not like I have just bought it and started to change everything right away.

@stu_le_brew I think it might be, the only problem is that I can't get it to result as good as the other I used to work with. But I'll get there.

Edited by Guest

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So I was printing again using different settings:

BEFORE NOW

Print Speed: 40mm/s - SAME

Layer Height: 0.1mm - SAME

Fill Density 25% - 26%

Cooling OFF - SAME

Infill Speed 60mm/s - 0

Shell Thickness 0.8mm - SAME

Temp: 220ºC ~ 230ºC - SAME

Bed temp 60ºC - 55ºC

Material flow 110% - 100%

Outer Shell 0

Inner Shell 45mm/s

So I was having the same issue:

IMG_1380.thumb.JPG.dfa9b3fb2bce0bc68c07259a1ab861d2.JPG

So I lowered the temperature to 210ºC and waited for a few lines to be printed, then raised temp to 235ºC. As you can see below, the spaced lines are the ones with lower temp, and then after the temperature raised to 235, the lines were bonded again. So higher temperature has a good effect on this PLA/PHA.

IMG_1381.thumb.jpg.13364211cf1d131aa01738a01bdc0180.jpg

IMG_1380.thumb.JPG.dfa9b3fb2bce0bc68c07259a1ab861d2.JPG

IMG_1381.thumb.jpg.13364211cf1d131aa01738a01bdc0180.jpg

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Here are top recommended speeds for .1mm layers:

40mm/sec at 200C

60mm/sec at 210C

80mm/sec at 225C

100mm/sec at 240C

The printer can do double these speeds but with huge difficulty and usually with a loss in part quality due to underextrusion.

60mm/sec infill at 210C should be okay for most PLA and most printers but it's the fastest I like to go for that temp. I've never printed PLA/PHA but I'm not surprised that it needs a bit more heat. Note that when you have a 100% infill like this and you overextrude at 110% you run the heavy risk of too much pressure build up - no place for the extra PLA to go so it skips back. Whereas 110% on a wall should be fine as there is plenty of "air" for that PLA to fill into.

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