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ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

The Ultimaker 3 looks awesome. Purchased my UM2+ two weeks ago, received it one week ago (just before the teaser was released).. and the swedish reseller didn't even mention something was around the corner. The higher cost of the UM3 would probably not have been a deal breaker for us either. So very disappointed about that, even though I'm sure the UM2+ still will be a great printer.

 

Hi @Tennet, thank you for your post and welcome to the forums :)

I am happy to hear you are a satisfied user of your Ultimaker 2+ but I can see how the recent launch of the new Ultimaker 3 can leave a bitter taste. We will continue to support the Ultimaker 2+, so you shouldn't worry about it being replaced by the Ultimaker 3. The machines will live and perform next to each other. An important question to ask yourself, what do you need an Ultimaker for. Does the Ultimaker 2+ give you this?

I can understand that you would have preferred to choose your Ultimaker model by knowing the entire picture. Even if it meant you would have still chosen the Ultimaker 2+, because it is such a reliable 3D printer with an excellent track record you would have at least made a choice. I get that. The reseller was indeed prevented to make any statements about future releases. But that doesn't mean we have reached a dead end now.

At Ultimaker we always want to look after our customers, they are the reason why we do things and why we were even able to develop the Ultimaker 3.

If you are still interested in getting an Ultimaker 3 (instead of an Ultimaker2+), I would like to ask you to send me a DM with the following information:

- your contact details

- what Ultimaker model you bought

- when you bought it

- and at which reseller

We will contact you and together we can see if we can find a reasonable and mutual solution. Our community is very dear to us, and so is your satisfaction :)

Hopefully this helps. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask!

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

Smart......

I wonder how Ultimaker has the brains to think of this kind of stuff.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg

 

The first time I saw about it it looked too easy, but when you check the printhead and see the mechanism, there is more complexity hidden there. I'm sure at Ultimaker HQ they tested all the different ways, and in the end they chose the most reliable one: the mechanical switch.

Also, and for all the people that want this printhead on the UM2, I don't see how this could be easily adapted without having to change the panels and other parts. It's not about being Ultimaker fanboys, we all wish it was possible to hack the Ultimaker until it was the best machine ever, but the results first need to meet some quality standards.

 

True......

I would call this an engineering marvel.

The 7 Wonders of the 3D Printing World:

 

  1. Prusa mesh bed leveling

  2. BCN3D Sigma independent extruders

  3. UM3 nozzle lifting system

  4. Carbon 3D CLIP printing process

  5. E3D Volcano extended heater block

  6. Lulzbot nozzle cleaning process

  7. Lulzbot tilt compensation

 

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

I won't stop you from selling your Ultimaker, but I honestly think that it's not worth it......

Most prints don't have the complexity at which soluble supports is necessary, and the 1k jump in the price is rather large......

It really depends on what you're using your Ultimaker for. If it's just as a tool you use at home, then I would probably stick with the UM2+ and possibly hack it a bit to get some newer features, but if you're running a company or printing hub with it, the UM3 is a great choice because of the automation and reliability.

Again, your choice, but I just feel bad for the Ultimaker that you're going to sell.

 

My 3D printing is maker hobby so far. But I am usually ambitious & perfectionist if I do something. Then I want to achieve the best possible.

And if there's a solution to dual printing for support material or other fun now, I NEED this :-)

The price is secondary in that case, I would also be ready to invest 500 Euros in one of the good hacks that were developed recently for dual extrusion. But with all these the tuning work to get them going worries me. None of these upgrades is plug and play, for me that might be worth the +1.000 Euros for the UM3, eliminating this hassle.

But definitely the 3.500 Euros is the uppermost limit to spend on a personal 3D printer... ;-)

On the other hand the UM3 is not as hackable any more. (Or better you don't want to mess with that any more, you'd compromise it's reliability).

I created a exchange head and a hacked firmware for the UM2+ that lets me UV laser expose PCBs, that's slightly harder with UM3, new hardware, new firmware, new print head.

 

Yes, the UM3 is in this nice "all-in-on" package pretty much guaranteed to work, but if you're using it as a hobby tool, then maybe look into something like the Y-splitter:

http://prusaprinters.org/original-prusa-i3-mk2-multi-material-upgrade-release/

It seems to work well and stay cost-efficient at the same time.

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Is CURA support generation improved for UM3 ?.

So far, automatic support in Cura is rather unusable.

I usually add support by hand at the desgin stage, but having automatic support is nice when it is done properly (e.g. Zortrax printer).

 

Cura's same material support generation is a bit improved in Cura 2.3, but the really good thing is when you use the PVA support, it "just works" with the default settings most of the time with very good results.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

Also, is anyone else thinking about swapping out the UMO+ aluminum build platform for a UM3 style one?

 

Just did a quick rough measurement between the 3 and the 2 and it seems to me the 3 bed will just fit...

 

THANK YOU. It's great to have someone who has both to measure it out :)

I'm assuming that the heated bed has not changed. Is that correct?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

Also, is anyone else thinking about swapping out the UMO+ aluminum build platform for a UM3 style one?

 

Just did a quick rough measurement between the 3 and the 2 and it seems to me the 3 bed will just fit...

 

THANK YOU. It's great to have someone who has both to measure it out :)

I'm assuming that the heated bed has not changed. Is that correct?

 

while UltiArjan is still asleep, i can help you out there ;)

there are some small changes there, the Z stage has changed completely, but the temperature range and the glass plate have remained the same. I do believe it reaches the temperature a bit quicker as compared to the UM2 and UM2+ but that might just be my imagination.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

Also, is anyone else thinking about swapping out the UMO+ aluminum build platform for a UM3 style one?

 

Just did a quick rough measurement between the 3 and the 2 and it seems to me the 3 bed will just fit...

 

THANK YOU. It's great to have someone who has both to measure it out :)

I'm assuming that the heated bed has not changed. Is that correct?

 

while UltiArjan is still asleep, i can help you out there ;)

there are some small changes there, the Z stage has changed completely, but the temperature range and the glass plate have remained the same. I do believe it reaches the temperature a bit quicker as compared to the UM2 and UM2+ but that might just be my imagination.

 

Thank you! So I should (theoretically) be able to fit the UMO+ heated bed and glass plate onto the new platform, right? Also, the distance between the bearings (the vertical rods) is the same, right?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

The distance between the Z rods is the same. The platform has been made stiffer.

However, for the active-leveling to work proper, there are some requirements on the bed. So replacing it might ruin those results.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

 

O

Do you mean that the bed itself is flexible and is held tight by the tension of springs?

Or something else?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

 

O

Do you mean that the bed itself is flexible and is held tight by the tension of springs?

Or something else?

 

yes, the back end of the plate can flex up and down

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

 

O

Do you mean that the bed itself is flexible and is held tight by the tension of springs?

Or something else?

 

yes, the back end of the plate can flex up and down

 

Was that a deliberate design? Does it affect the top surface of the bed and cause it to resonate or move around?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

 

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

 

O

Do you mean that the bed itself is flexible and is held tight by the tension of springs?

Or something else?

 

yes, the back end of the plate can flex up and down

 

Was that a deliberate design? Does it affect the top surface of the bed and cause it to resonate or move around?

 

i think it is :) it doesn't impact any quality, works like a charm.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

But if I don't need the leveling then my old heater will work, right?

 

suppose so.. you will have to take in mind that the back of the bed is now spring loaded, so it's flexible if that makes sense?

 

The back spring-loaded? I'm assuming that's not the bedleveling spring, right?

How is it spring loaded?

 

O

Do you mean that the bed itself is flexible and is held tight by the tension of springs?

Or something else?

 

yes, the back end of the plate can flex up and down

 

Was that a deliberate design? Does it affect the top surface of the bed and cause it to resonate or move around?

 

i think it is :)it doesn't impact any quality, works like a charm.

 

Woah......

So like a dampening system?

I'm impressed.

I need to add this to my 7 Wonders of the (Desktop) 3D Printing World.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Woah......

So like a dampening system?

I'm impressed.

I need to add this to my 7 Wonders of the (Desktop) 3D Printing World.

 

No, not a dampening system. It's needed for the bed levelling. The nozzle actually depresses the plate slightly during levelling.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

Woah......

So like a dampening system?

I'm impressed.

I need to add this to my 7 Wonders of the (Desktop) 3D Printing World.

 

No, not a dampening system. It's needed for the bed levelling. The nozzle actually depresses the plate slightly during levelling.

 

Oh okay, less impressive, but still nice :)

Is it built into the aluminum plate?

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Well, I initially did not want to jump in on that discussion, also because I already ranted extensively on Facebook, but....

Meduza, I don't know why You keep talking "on behalf of" the Ultimaker company, especially when You start acting rude towards disappointed customers (the "bullshit" comment), especially when Your comments contradict the official staff...

I agree with most things that CCA1 wrote, and mostofall, I can understand his point of view (because I am pretty much in the same position), while You obviously can't. While an ultimaker for most people is "a hobby", and for some people is "a small printing business", for professionals it is simply "a tool", nothing more and nothing less. There is no such thing as "a hobby tool", it's either, or.

And You simply can't and don't follow every tools manufacturers' "press release" or "CEO interview", it's just not possible. I also use a computer as a tool (first computer in 1984, first "personal computer" in 1992, 3D-CAD since 1999), and still don't follow Intel's or Nvidia's gossip either.

I've been using of 3D printed prototypes since 15 years (when having just a small part printed cost as much as a used car), and I've been following the "desktop printer" and "Ultimaker story" since the beginning. And while I liked the UMO, I didn't want an "experimental" printer (so I had my friends buy one; clever me). The UM2 seemd mature enough, also because of that "dual extrusion promise", so I finally bought that one. Someone has asked CCA1 why he bought the UM2+ even when it didn't fulfill his needs (yet)... well, sometimes You simply cannot wait any longer and need to opt for a compromise, plus, sometimes You decide to support an idea or a company through an early purchase, expecting them to redeem their promise one day in the future. I buy a lot of stuff that offers little use for my work,  (i.e. buying a 400€ "David Laserscanner Starter Kit" even though I had access to a 250.000€ GOM system), only because I'd like to see that company prosper and hope for their future products to be valuable for my work.

Mentioning "valuable", that's another point that sets hobbyists apart from professionals. It's not like freelancers or companies can "easily affor to spend some extra hundred bucks" on something, like someone said, the opposite is true: For a professional, invest requires benefit, and time has a high value. While an enthusiast might exaltedly spend a couple thousand bucks on their hobby (I do, too, but 3D printing is not my hobby), every professional needs to consider if the benefit is worth the invest. And while an enthusiast might experience deep satisfaction from tinkering with his machine for hours, to a professional it's just a time where he loses money.

In retrospective, I bought my printer too early. I don't print a lot, but when I do, it's important. In many cases, I would have been way better off if I had just bought an SLA/SLS print. Remembering this one situation where I had developed a product that required a tooling invest of 30.000€, and I promised to print a prototype for my customer, and then messed with parameters for hours, to finally realize that a spare part is needed, and then finding out that spare part is "out of stock" everywhere...

Therefor, enthusiasts, be happy to enjoy Your printing machine and Your hobby. But please acknowledge that other people might have different points of view and judge/value things differently. (Years ago, I have turned my hobby into my profession. But even when I succeded to maintain my enthusiasm, and live my passion on a higher level, I sort of lost my hobby. And even when I regret nothing, not one day goes by without a moment where I'm envious of "the amateur".)

The only thing I disagree with CCA1 is the "target audience". To me, the UM3 is targeted at "printing hubs", and I for my part woudn't need a webcam, or many of the automatization features (why didn't Ultimaker go for a modular system with a "base model" and upgrade features?). Nevertheless, I still need the dual extrusion feature. I am not confusing "want" with "need" here. I once had to print a prototype of a four-stroke cylinder head in 13 (!!!) pieces, glue them together to 4 pieces, and then alltogether, when with support material I could have easily done it in one piece. As I wrote before, simply ordering an SLS/SLA prototype would have saved me lots of time and money.

Daid, I really appreciate Your calm and reasonable explanation of how and why You stopped the dual extrusion idea for the UM2. I haven't known any of that before (not even that it was stopped), and I totally understand Your point. But still... have You ever wondered what would have happened if Ultimaker had published Your posting instead of that "company announcement"? Imagine Ultimaker admitting in early 2015 that "our staff is too small, and too busy with other projects", I guess that quite a few people (including myself) would have jumped in to help out. In the end, we all shared the same goal: To have a dual extruder on the UM2.

(I am aware that quite a few people are working on that, but a "3rd party product" is no option to me, I don't want to hack code or firmware and the like, I want full and one-stop manufacturer support)

All this finally leads to my "list of disappointments" about Ultimaker:

1. Upgrade price policy. I consider the "2+ upgrade kit" to be a "bugfix", a "service pack", and the 500€ price tag for that kit is way too high (I consider 300€ to be appropriate). Yes, it offers a new feeder and a new hotend, but there's a lot of feeders and hotends out there... a few people have promoted that "upgrade" to people like myself, but fail to acknowledge that a Bondtech and an E3D cost way less and offer at least the same performance...

2. Product policy. I do understand that the UM3 is a "totally new product". That doing so was necessary, and that the new printer is targeted at a slightly different audience. But still, I feel left behind. Instead of an upgrade (based on point 1, I was expecting it to be costly anyway), or a trade-in, I and others have to decide about an all-new purchase. And the new printer comes with a price tag that makes it hard to decide for an Ultimaker (or other fused-filament printer) instead of an SLA printer (I for my part will most probably go for a Form 2; I don't need all these "colour" and fancy-material stuff that FFF offer).

3. Communication policy. Out of the blue, You started a "printed with the new Ultimaker" hype. People like myself immediately saw "ah, dual extruder, finally!", only to find out a few days later that "we" would not benefit, that "we" could not go to the promised land. That is stupid, plain and simple. You just don't hype people up only to pi** them off immedately after that, that's a "Marketing coitus interruptus". You may have noticed that many of Your Facebook postings received less than 100 "likes", and You are surely well aware now few "I want that" lead to a real "I bought that" in the end. Why not go back to the way You went about the UM2? You had a clear statement about the "old" product, and the new product, about the differences between them, so everyone could chose. As for the UM3, You could even have communicated the dual extruder in way that gently (!!!) informed even the last one that it is a UM3-only feature. And You should have communicated all that way sooner! There's reasonable arguments for all three generations of printers, it's not like UM3 announcement would have stopped all UM2+ sales immediately. People would have looked at the features, and the price tags, and then decide. After all, did UM2 stop all UMO sales? Hell no.

Now, since Meduza explicitly mentioned "Apple"... well, I disdain Apple products since the early 1990s (when they were mostly used in typesetting), but even I have to admit they have a cult-like following for a reason: Excellent/supreme products. If one looks at Ultimaker test results, i.e. the "Make Shootouts": In 2014, the UMO won the shootout, confirming to my friends they had made the right choice in 2013 (they were sceptical at first, because they had bought a p.i.t.a. printer in 2012). In 2015, the UM2 won the shootout, confirming myself I had made the right choice, convincing my friends to buy an UM2+ (that never performed as well as their UMO, bytheway). In 2016, the UM2+ came sixth! So anyone still throwing an "Apple attitude" at me has most probably not heard the calls, and should probably rather google one of the follwing: AOL. Nokia. Silicon Graphics. Yahoo. Especially when the requirement of to purchase an all-new product to reward an old promise is seriously cutting ties to many current customers anyway...

So yes, the rant is over. It may have been some hard critics, but I did so because I care. (I still want that dual extruder :))

r

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

You make a lot of valid points.  

I was disappointed to see some of the harsh responses some have given.

I was fortunate to be invited to the grand reveal by the Ultimaker team and spend a lot of quality time with them.  Everyone I meet impressed me so much.  I would have to say my impression over the past few days has been like this....a family is proud to introduce their new child   :)

The Ultimaker 3 is a remarkable machine that shows a LOT of experimentation, new ideas and efforts went into it.  Siert (the CTO) spent an hour or more chatting with me about all the methods the team went through to make something extremely stable and reliable for their customers.  The prints really emphasize that point.

I've read many of the posts about the Ultimaker 2 not being able to fulfill the hope of doing dual extrusion.  It looks like others have some ideas on how to get there, though.

As a hobbyist/enthusiast user, the Ultimaker 3 will make some really complicated prints so much easier.  ( My BB-8 build has many curved pieces and support material is very problematic!)  It's a bit out of my budget for now.  But for the professionals who need a return on investment with reliable printing with less tinkering, this machine is it.  The learning curve has been brought way down with way the filament settings are scanned in, the bed leveling and all those features previously explained.

Announcing upgrades is a tricky spot.  As a customer, you value good communication so you choose properly.   Every year Apple has their annual event and we all know they announce new upgrades/products then.  Ulitmaker has been working on this project for a long time, so I'm sure they didn't want to promise something that wasn't quite ready.

I'm looking forward to see how well these printers work for the professional users out there.  I had no idea what to expect and after meeting a lot of professionals at the Ultimaker 3 reveal, it's obvious to me these printers will perform great.

My short rant  :)

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I'm surprised to not see any ooze schield in any pictures or videos, and nobody talk about the oozing on this Ultimaker 3.

There is a "ooze avoiding system" ?

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Rasputin, You make for a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing. You hit the nail on the head with my printer being a "tool". Not a hobby.

I have been designing products on my own, with my small business for about 11 years now and have sent so many CAD files off to the prototyping houses in that time. I had been looking for some time, and had initially decided on the Form 2+. But as I compared it to the claims of the Ultimaker, I changed over to the Ultimaker 2+ Extended. I had hopes of reclaiming some of the revenue I had been sending out. It wasn't a quick decision, as my small company does just enough to keep us going.

To date, I have close to 650 hours of run time on my machine and only have two models I was able to send out to customers. One of which they declined full payment on, based on the quality of the prototype. (I had so many support structures to get it to print that it was impossible to clean off well) Some of the print time is now generated from things I have printed for myself around the house and such.

I design complex models that almost always require lots of support structures, and the idea of printing them in the same material has proven to be extremely time consuming and my customers would be better off going back to the prototyping houses than paying me for all the time I have to put into cleaning off the prototypes I make.

I have resigned my machine to a toy and gadget maker that just can't do what I had hoped. I would never recommend this machine to anyone who wants it for more than simple, no overhang type of prints. No way could you ever use it in a business atmosphere and make any money with it, unless you were strictly making items that need zero support structure all the time. Sure you could break your design up into several pieces and glue them together. (Well, only sometimes can you do that, as I found out) But then you are back to many man hours on the part and what happens when the glue fails while the customer is messing with it?

LePaul,

Thank you for the more personal look into the people of Ultimaker. We don't always get that perspective and it's nice to have.

That being said, unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that I have a very expensive machine sitting here that can't do what I thought it was supposed to be able to do and they have the one that will. But I can't do anything about it because I spent all my money on this one.

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