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ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Also, is anyone else thinking about swapping out the UMO+ aluminum build platform for a UM3 style one? The current one is just a thick, ridiculously heavy slab of aluminum, and the newer design seems to be a good alternative.

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

 

Great to hear that! Additionally, the dimensions of the UMO+ and the UM2+ are the same, so they should both work, right?

Super interested in this, please tell me if you guys come out with one!

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

 

Take a look - guess, it can also be (community)ported to UMO/UMO+ too (of course, they're discontinued, but would be a nice...)

Edited by Guest

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Quick question, but what do you do with the PVA solution from removing the supports? What is the responsible way to dispose of it?

Planning to get a 3 extended to run alongside my other machines, and will see how the cores go.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

 

Take a look - guess, it can also be (community)ported to UMO/UMO+ too (of course, they're discontinued, but would be a nice...)

 

I don't think the UMO+ was discontinued, only the UMO......

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

 

Take a look - guess, it can also be (community)ported to UMO/UMO+ too (of course, they're discontinued, but would be a nice...)

 

For the lifting mechanism it seems like there is the block at the end with a small slit in it, and when the nozzle needs changing, the printhead goes into the corner so that a tiny lever (on the side of the printhead) fits into the slit, and then by moving the printhead forwards or backwards, it can flip the lever to tilt the internal mechanisms.

I'm not positive, but it seems to be like that from the video.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

 

 

I'm thinking about designing a similar one and having it CNCed.

 

I've already poked one of our hardware engineers about this. As far as I know (I'm just a software guy, so don't pin me down on this) it should be possible to back-port the um3 bed to the UM2.

If there is a lot of interest for this, we could have a serious look at this.

 

Take a look - guess, it can also be (community)ported to UMO/UMO+ too (of course, they're discontinued, but would be a nice...)

 

For the lifting mechanism it seems like there is the block at the end with a small slit in it, and when the nozzle needs changing, the printhead goes into the corner so that a tiny lever (on the side of the printhead) fits into the slit, and then by moving the printhead forwards or backwards, it can flip the lever to tilt the internal mechanisms.

I'm not positive, but it seems to be like that from the video.

 

It's a small switch mechanism that lifts the right nozzle, and it's activated by a small part in the right panel, which is in charge of switching between cores. It's mechanical solution.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Smart......

I wonder how Ultimaker has the brains to think of this kind of stuff.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg

 

The first time I saw about it it looked too easy, but when you check the printhead and see the mechanism, there is more complexity hidden there. I'm sure at Ultimaker HQ they tested all the different ways, and in the end they chose the most reliable one: the mechanical switch.

Also, and for all the people that want this printhead on the UM2, I don't see how this could be easily adapted without having to change the panels and other parts. It's not about being Ultimaker fanboys, we all wish it was possible to hack the Ultimaker until it was the best machine ever, but the results first need to meet some quality standards.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)
If anyone wants to do some UMO+ hacking, let me know!

I'd be interested to help implement dual extrusion to UM2(+). Actually, that's why I bought that UM2 in the first place... :(

r

(mechanical engineer; 18 years of experience in special machinery, manufacturing machines, product development)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

It's a small switch mechanism that lifts the right nozzle, and it's activated by a small part in the right panel, which is in charge of switching between cores. It's mechanical solution.

 

Of course, but pictures say more than 1000 words... :-)

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

20161019_163506.thumb.jpg.501ec08cc5c5eb85526ea838edd3df25.jpg

It looks so simple like this. But the hours and hours that went into developing and testing this thing. Nothing really does it justice.

20161019_163506.thumb.jpg.501ec08cc5c5eb85526ea838edd3df25.jpg

Edited by Guest
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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

It looks so simple like this. But the hours and hours that went into developing and testing this thing. Nothing really does it justice.

 

One fact does. It works. :)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

so i'll reply as well..

the whole UM2 and dual extrusion discussion is pretty much dead. yes it was promised for the UM2, no it was never promised for the UM2+ and if you were expecting it for the UM2+ that is not something Ultimaker had anything to do with. sorry if that sounds harsh, but they have been very clear since the beginning of the UM2+ that that device would not do dual extrusion. if you were expecting it that;s not something you can blame on them..

 

Thank you everyone for your feedback. (Korneel, Meduza, Daid) Discussion is good. Be as harsh as you want. I'm pretty thick skinned.

When I was looking for a 3D printer in March of 2016, all I know is I read dual extruder this and dual extruder that and never a thing saying specifically "the new 2+ or 2+ extended will NOT EVER have the dual extruder. At least not until after I purchased the machine on April 6th.

Sucks to be me right? I didn't read the correct forum paragraph right? (because you realize that statement was not on the website? Only somewhere here in the forum.) Didn't ask the right questions right?

Then, come to find out Ultimaker didn't ALLOW there distributors to let anyone who was buying one of there printers know that this was just around the corner, and let them buy the 2+ without saying a word?!?! That almost sounds illegal at best. Those poor people.

"it has a very different target audience"

No, it does not. It has the exact same audience. Anyone who has purchased the more expensive Ultimaker 2+ or Extended over the hundreds of different cheaper 3D printers out there, wants what this one has. (even more) Plain and simple.

"this machine is not meant to be tinkered with all the time. this machine is a workhorse. you buy it because you need a lot of very reliable prints done."

Anybody who wants to tinker buys the UMO. Anybody who just wants reliable prints done consistently buys the UM2+ or the UM3.

"if you run them 24/7 and need a very reliable consistent printing experience, you need an UM3. they are simply very different machines."

And yet, prior to the UM3, this statement was true about the UMO vs the UM2+

"anyway, that's my rant.. you gotta put things into perspective. the UM3 is not a successor to the Um2+. it's a new device for a new market."

Hey, Its a good rant. ; ) And I feel I did put things in perspective. But that's just my opinion. Yes, the UM3 is a completely new device. But it is for the exact same market Ultimaker based their UM2+ and extended 2+ on.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I won't stop you from selling your Ultimaker, but I honestly think that it's not worth it......

Most prints don't have the complexity at which soluble supports is necessary, and the 1k jump in the price is rather large......

It really depends on what you're using your Ultimaker for. If it's just as a tool you use at home, then I would probably stick with the UM2+ and possibly hack it a bit to get some newer features, but if you're running a company or printing hub with it, the UM3 is a great choice because of the automation and reliability.

Again, your choice, but I just feel bad for the Ultimaker that you're going to sell.

 

My 3D printing is maker hobby so far. But I am usually ambitious & perfectionist if I do something. Then I want to achieve the best possible.

And if there's a solution to dual printing for support material or other fun now, I NEED this :-)

The price is secondary in that case, I would also be ready to invest 500 Euros in one of the good hacks that were developed recently for dual extrusion. But with all these the tuning work to get them going worries me. None of these upgrades is plug and play, for me that might be worth the +1.000 Euros for the UM3, eliminating this hassle.

But definitely the 3.500 Euros is the uppermost limit to spend on a personal 3D printer... ;-)

On the other hand the UM3 is not as hackable any more. (Or better you don't want to mess with that any more, you'd compromise it's reliability).

I created a exchange head and a hacked firmware for the UM2+ that lets me UV laser expose PCBs, that's slightly harder with UM3, new hardware, new firmware, new print head.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I am a 100% sure that with the launch of the UM2+ we made sure that nowhere, nothing, no communication was done that it would ever support dual extrusion. We even went trough the extra effort of closing the 2nd hole in the print head to make it extra clear. So the suggestion that there would be dual extrusion for the 2+ has not come from us. But I'm sorry that you think it would have come.

 

Then, come to find out Ultimaker didn't ALLOW there distributors to let anyone who was buying one of there printers know that this was just around the corner, and let them buy the 2+ without saying a word?!?! That almost sounds illegal at best. Those poor people.

 

Illegal? No, not by far. Annoying as hell, yes, I can agree with that. However, seeing it from our side, sales for the 2 will stop as soon as people know that the 3 is around the corner. And we did dodge a few last minute bullets for this launch, we almost had to delay. Which could have mend that we had no revenue stream anymore.

It's not a bait&switch. You are getting exactly what you ordered. You could just contact the seller to see if you can still switch your order.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

When I was looking for a 3D printer in March of 2016, all I know is I read dual extruder this and dual extruder that and never a thing saying specifically "the new 2+ or 2+ extended will NOT EVER have the dual extruder.

 

On a product page, you usually tell the customers what a machine CAN do, not what it cannot do sometime in the future.

 

(because you realize that statement was not on the website? Only somewhere here in the forum.)

Firstly, it actually was/is on the website (or at least on the company blog): https://ultimaker.com/en/blog/91-company-update-january-2015

Secondly, there were no statement on the website that said anything about it getting dual extrusion, it was "only somewhere here in the forum", right?

Not that everyone read 3D Printing news sites, but this interview was shared on quite a lot of places in January of 2016, where Jos Burger (Ultimaker CEO) more or less told us that they would release a new machine this year with dual extrusion: https://all3dp.com/ultimaker-interview/

 

Then, come to find out Ultimaker didn't ALLOW there distributors to let anyone who was buying one of there printers know that this was just around the corner, and let them buy the 2+ without saying a word?!?! That almost sounds illegal at best. Those poor people.

 

Well, it is the same with every manufacturer that releases a new product, either they keep it secret until release for everyone, but that is not a good way of cooperating with your distribution network, so they instead share information under a NDA/Embargo so the partners in the distribution network can get training, place their initial orders, arrange launch events etc, to better serve the customers at and after the release, but that also means that a lot of people then know stuff they are not allowed to talk about until a specified date.

Just like a Apple reseller that would not be allowed to share details about the new iPhone before the official announcment, or that car salesmen have training and specs on the new high-end car before it is unveiled, but are not allowed to talk about it. It is a very common practice and there is nothing illegal about it.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

"We even went trough the extra effort of closing the 2nd hole in the print head to make it extra clear."

But you left the hole in the nozzle mounting surface which is what you see when looking into the machine, or images of it. You would have to get down and look UNDER it to see you blocked off the hole for the nozzle where it goes in. And that is just a shield.

"On a product page, you usually tell the customers what a machine CAN do, not what it cannot do sometime in the future."

Agreed. Emphatically. I was simply responding to the statements about Ultimaker stating clearly that it was not further looking into dual extrusion for the UM2+. No one would have ever known by looking through the website. So, not sure where, other than buried in the forum it would have been.

"Firstly, it actually was/is on the website (or at least on the company blog):

Sorry but "company blog" is not the company website.

"Secondly, there were no statement on the website that said anything about it getting dual extrusion, it was "only somewhere here in the forum", right?"

Sure. But more like "everywhere" here on the forum pro dual. Nowhere here on the forum anti-dual. (at least very minimal and hard to find.)

"Well, it is the same with every manufacturer that releases a new product"

No, not every manufacturer. I design products for a living and many of them share when their new product is coming out. If it doesn't make the deadline, they explain just why and release the new date. It's really quite simple. Car buyers know the new car release will be once a year every year. But at least they know when and can make a decision to buy the old model or wait exactly how long to buy the new. Not a good comparison. Apple became the lead in "hiding your product till the last minute" Now many think it's a good idea. And, maybe, for some, it is. But as we can see now, probably not for Ultimaker.

"You could just contact the seller to see if you can still switch your order."

Have done that. As soon as I saw the release email of the Ultimaker 3. No response as of yet.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

"We even went trough the extra effort of closing the 2nd hole in the print head to make it extra clear."You would have to get down and look UNDER it to see you blocked off the hole for the nozzle where it goes in. And that is just a shield.

 

What @daid is refering to is that the holes for the second hotend are closed both at the top and the bottom of the print head, yes it is still in the two middle pieces, but not in the top and bottom.

ultimaker-2-plus-ultimaker-2-extended-plus-launched-CES-2016-4.jpg

Ultimaker%202+%20Detail%20%233.jpg

 

Sorry but "company blog" is not the company website.

 

I do disagree, many companies makes announcements at their blogs nowadays, but i can see why you do not think so, so i stand down on this statement.

 

Sure. But more like "everywhere" here on the forum pro dual. Nowhere here on the forum anti-dual. (at least very minimal and hard to find.)

 

Yes, there have been a lot of interesting projects with dual extrusion, like the @foehnsturm tool changer, of course people here on the forums talk a lot more about possibilities than about problems.

 

...many of them share when their new product is coming out.... ..."hiding your product till the last minute" Now many think it's a good idea. And, maybe, for some, it is. But as we can see now, probably not for Ultimaker.

 

Well, i beg to differ, especially in a fast-moving field as 3D Printing, many people do just as @daid said in his post above and stop buying the "old version" as soon as they know the date a "new version" will be released. So releasing the date say half a year earlier might have resulted in a sales loss of a few thousand UM2+ (just guessing the numbers here) wich could have been a financial disaster to Ultimaker, especially if the UM3 would have been delayed.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Also, is anyone else thinking about swapping out the UMO+ aluminum build platform for a UM3 style one?

 

Just did a quick rough measurement between the 3 and the 2 and it seems to me the 3 bed will just fit...

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

What @daid is refering to is that the holes for the second hotend are closed both at the top and the bottom of the print head, yes it is still in the two middle pieces, but not in the top and bottom.

 

Yes, I realize that. But thanks. I was referring to the hole immediately next to the nozzle that makes it appear as though there is room for another nozzle

 

Yes, there have been a lot of interesting projects with dual extrusion, like the @foehnsturm tool changer, of course people here on the forums talk a lot more about possibilities than about problems.

 

Maybe I will get lucky enough to get someone elses dual extrusion set-up to work for me. Will have to keep my eyes open. I just heard back from my supplier and they will not take my 2+Extended in on trade. : (

 

Well, i beg to differ, especially in a fast-moving field as 3D Printing, many people do just as @daid said in his post above and stop buying the "old version" as soon as they know the date a "new version" will be released. So releasing the date say half a year earlier might have resulted in a sales loss of a few thousand UM2+ (just guessing the numbers here) wich could have been a financial disaster to Ultimaker, especially if the UM3 would have been delayed.

 

Agreed. Half a year would not be business savvy. But a couple weeks maybe a month doesn't seem to far fetched? I'm not referring to me now of course, but the few who posted on here about buying weeks before this came out. I just feel even worse about their predicament.

I'll just have to keep my eyes open for the best "add-on" dual extrusion option for my machine. Unless, of course, anyone wants to buy a lightly used 2+ extended with only 650 hours of printing time? ; )

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Is CURA support generation improved for UM3 ?.

So far, automatic support in Cura is rather unusable.

I usually add support by hand at the desgin stage, but having automatic support is nice when it is done properly (e.g. Zortrax printer).

Edited by Guest

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

Hmm, I'm pretty sure they would have told me if they are going to use it.

 

We would. Everyone in the R&D department takes great care to assign attribution where it's due.

 

Not just R&D, that goes for all of Ultimaker ;)
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