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ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

@cca1 you can always place the printer you have up for sale, using the proceeds to upgrade to the Ultimaker 3

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I think is was very clear that there won't be an upgrade, almost teo years ago I called by phone to ultimaker and asked to the sales person if there would br a dual for um2 and they told me that 'no it could be too expensive and would need too many important changes to the machine'.

So I don't see the issue since all was clear. I got my first umo+ year and a half ago and started to learn 3d printing and even made a dual magnetic version based on foehnsturm designs.

I also use them for my business and I think they are great machines and even without dual they can do pretty much anything if you plan the models ahead.

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)
Ulitmaker has been working on this project for a long time, so I'm sure they didn't want to promise something that wasn't quite ready.

It's a young company. I guess nobody would be upset if they'd ever need to say "due to limited resources und unforeseen complications, we need to postpone our product launch by 4 weeks" (actually, it already happened anyway; if You order now, You'll receive the UM3 in November). Just look at Kickstarter, how many companies have delays? I never cared. Look at Tesla, they're big, and always in delay, and nobody's angry...

 

My short rant  :)

I tried to keep it short, too. I failed miserably, as always. :D

 

even without dual they can do pretty much anything if you plan the models ahead.

This applies to parts that were meant to be 3D-printed from the beginning. It does not apply if You want to print a sample of a cylinder head that later-on will be manufactured in a 5-piece steel mold with 2 sandcores.

r

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

All printers I know, with decent dual-extruder abilities (Zortrax, BCN3D, Tumaker, UM3,..) have the same price target, even higher than UM3.

So price may be right. I can figure out UM people have been thinking a lot about, not only technical aspects, but commercial matters as well.

BTW, rasputin, David Laserscanner was sold to HP. (and yes, it was/is a great product!).

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

@rasputin: Honestly the bullshit comment might have been over the top, sorry about that everyone, but i was just so tired after reading so many comments about Ultimaker promising dual extrusion (mostly on facebook), that when @CCA1 kept insisting on that there were lots of information that said the UM2+ would get dual extrusion when he bought it, while in reality there were only some threads here on the forum with people talking about dual extrusion and a official statement more than a year before the release of the UM2+ clearly stating there would be none, i got quite a bit annoyed.

I can see why people are annoyed since Ultimaker has been great at releasing upgrades and giving people upgrade paths before, and the fact that it was communicated that the UM2 would get dual extrusion in the future between its release 09/2013 and 01/2015, but the many comments here (and even more on Social Media) are just crazy...

 

Agreed. Half a year would not be business savvy. But a couple weeks maybe a month doesn't seem to far fetched?

 

I can absolutely agree with you about the timeframe, i honestly was very surprised that they started just over a week before the launch, 3-4 weeks would have been much better in many ways.

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Time for my 2 cents.

I've read a lot, want to answer a few questions, so it's going to be chaos. Let me however start the fact that I'm biased. I've known Ultimaker from the start being an intern at ProtoSpace, the fablab in Utrecht where UM was started(Do you have an early UM, then there is a change I lasered the frame :p). Back then it was about getting things to work better than currently available. And, being a (partial) kit, getting it to be assembled reliable. Especially the hot end was critical.

When I printed stuff on an UM in 2011 I was happy if something came out within a day of trying to get it to work(slicing, first layer problems, other errors). But I was happy, it was new, cool, a toy in the lab.

Fast forward to like 2,5 years ago, I got back into 3D printing and was amazed by the advances(Cura being imo one of the most important, but also hotend design and reliability).  This is about the same time I started to get back in touch with old friends and got to know more amazing UM staff, and became active on the old forum. I'd still have to spend some time to get everything right, but way less.

During this time I got the same impression but even stronger. UM products have to work, better than others, but most importantly, more reliable. The stories I heard from @Korneel, on print and forget with UM2's. And at some point with the Heated Bed Kit I could just press print and walk away too. In that regard the Apple comparison works. Within a certain market, you couldn't really pick wrong with an UM. Sure it was more expensive than a $200 China kit, but a non technical person could work with it and create art or scale models. Note that I'm not trying to brush over the 'many' troubles with couplers, hot ends etc and hacks (feeders, cable guides), and upgrades such as the Olsson block proved great, even making it into the official upgrade kit. In that sense UM still had the roots of the community, working together to create the best solution for everyone. However I do know a lot of people that made amazing things with stock UMs, no problems what so ever(most cases involved more patience, most of the forum users want to push the limits, speed, temperatures, models, hacks, upgrades, etc).

I never thought about buying an UM2(+), as budget wouldn't allow it, and part of the fun was tinkering with the printer, upgrading it, kit or custom. So I'm not in the same boat as others that faced the release of a new edition a few weeks/months after buying theirs. However, I know the feeling. Being a geek, always wanting the newest. I feel your pain. However the complaints @Ultimaker for not letting you know are ridiculous. People expect things from Ultimaker, comparing them to the largest companies in the west, yet when it comes to releases they want Ultimaker to be personal? When buying a car or Apple product it also doesn't say on the product page what it can't do, or that there might be a product next months.

Look at Xiaomi, started out as a Chinese phone company and is now branching out. A week after the moment you buy a phone, you know a new one is getting announced. Well, you know that once you are in the Xaiomi world. The first time you find out the hard way.

As for the dual extrusion upgrade on UM2(note, NOT +), as stated many times before, they wanted to, but only if feasible. That is, affordable, functioning without doubt, and above all, easy enough to install so that anyone can do it. Anyone.

When they realized this was not going to work, they had the balls to tell us. Even though they thought and told people just 4 months earlier, it was going to come.

That is tough to do, but right, and they did it. People got angry, and Ultimaker tried

to work things out with them and the resellers. Reactive, perhaps proactive too, I don't have any data on that, and in some cases it worked out, others it didn't.

Going back to the specific discussion now on UM3. We don't know what PVA will cost yet I believe. It could be very very expensive, only to be used if otherwise not possible, not just because it is easier/prettier. Yes it will create many many options, but an UM2+ can do most things too(and currently with the Olsson block things UM3 can't: nozzle sizes). Then again, you won't need nozzles for materials as the print cores seem to solve that completely.

The concept of print cores is perfect for the power user/industrial. The print and forget aspect. Replace without downtime. And don't forget, these things are really well designed and tested. It is an UM product after all.

@makingzone, I believe it is still advised to use wipe towers, but the oozing problem has mostly been solved by the design of the hotend, allowing it to cool down and heat up very fast, and reliably.

Summarizing, I think UM did a great job on the UM3 as a 3D printer itself. As for upgrade paths, or market aim. Time will tell what will happen. I really hope they will keep the tinkering spirit(think hack core) and work with the community to hack things, which in turn can improve UM3+ or UM4's. What we need to realize however is how incredibly large this company has become in a short while. Every time I visit their space has like doubled. With a larger company comes a larger inertia. You can't just get a part, can't just make a kit by taking some things here and there. Even things like bringing spare parts to UMevenings to save shipping have become incredibly hard to manage as the entire production/assembly machine is large and doesn't allow for these personal touches.

Ultimaker has grown up, and I keep enjoying it, even though I'm already starting to miss things.

Note, there have been quite a lot of things I didn't agree with, or thought could be better(forum is one of them, sometimes communication or other things) and both the R&D people I know such as @Nallath @Daid and the community managers such as @SandervG have always been there to listen, agree, disagree or argue(I could add more people but they are not active here on the forums).  For me that is the personal touch that makes Ultimaker special, next to good printers. That is also the reason I reached out to them, offered feedback and beta testing.

Someone mentioned make shootouts? I'd put my money on UM3 for a #1 spot. For it's target audience, and perhaps even less professional audiences that just want results and have the money.

This all being said, I'm really hyped to see UM3 hit the market, and read about user experiences. With that happening soon enough, it's time to sit down and think about the next step in desktop 3D printing Ultimaker could make.

Edit: damn that turned out longer than anticipated.

Edit2: Just noticed my finale paragraph in combination with my current level title is very fitting:

Capture.PNG.ba7562cecf50f5954308d29f41550746.PNG

Capture.PNG.ba7562cecf50f5954308d29f41550746.PNG

Edited by Guest
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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

So just to see what the expectations are:

Please suggestions for dual extrusion parts, which you think the UM3 will print well (or already did) and you'd like to print on your "old" UM2(+) as well.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Thank You for the insight, Titus.

Long story short, I guess we all can agree upon that Ultimaker "sort of promised" (as Daid put it) dual extruders for the UM2, and that the news it won't be possible didn't reach everybody, which caused quite some irritations and anger. For the Ultimaker company, this may probably lead to rethinking some communications aspects, for everybody else it's by now a thing of the past.

We can now leave it as it is, or try to change it. It's never too late. I for my part would be willing to put in work for any "UM2(+) dual extrusion" idea as long as it's "open", and has a chance to later-on receive official Ultimaker support. I'm not interested in "third party", and/or "business".

foehnsturm: The aforementioned aircooled four-stroke cylinder head.

r

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

We don't know what PVA will cost yet I believe. It could be very very expensive,

 

About the PVA;

Ultimaker PVA 350gr : 48,34 (incl. tax) - tried it, it works

Makerpoint home brand PVA 500gr : 39,95 - bought it, will try when I finished the UM

Innofil Innosolve PVA 500gr : 72,95 - won't try it, too expensive.

E3D scaffold 500gr : 45,- GBP : need to try that sometime, heard good things about it.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I think that the problems that we are discussing for the third consecutive year occur due to exactly one thing: Beginners do not always have the skills of modeling objects in relation to 3D printing. Professionals (with all due respect to their experience) do not take into account technology features, and that both sides feel cheated to a certain extent. Also imposes its influence the imperfection of the modern slicers ( and Cura, and S3D and Kisslicer, all of them), forcing you to spend a huge amount of time in order to get acceptable results. I think @neotko confirm my last supposition, as a man, who ditched hundreds of hours to hack S3D. This is a long introduction,but I'm getting close to the point: now, in fact, we have no one training programs from manufacturers of 3D printers for any category of users, allowing to learn to fully use all the features of a particular model. Look at RaspberryPi, remember, for which was a Minesweeper in Windows 95. Here, I am sure, not enough, not only Ultimaker, but all modern manufacturers FDM printers in the industry. We can all recall the fascinating examples of the use of UM2. Rec-robot, for example. With complex surfaces, detail that makes you want to withdraw money from the account, and go to purchase a second printer. And the fact that a designer with years of experience not able to print the four-stroke cylinder (although the thingverse estimatel full engine Honda with lovely pictures without postprocessing) tells me about it. It's not a bad designer, and not a bad printer, but the lack of skill of interaction with a new device, and the inability to obtain this skill is not hitting all the bumps on their own experience at a time when he needed just a tool for work, not adventure from Detalion, if you know what I mean. So, we need our Ultimaker Academy, or something like that. Thats my two cents, gang.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Rasputin, You make for a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing. You hit the nail on the head with my printer being a "tool". Not a hobby.

I have been designing products on my own, with my small business for about 11 years now and have sent so many CAD files off to the prototyping houses in that time. I had been looking for some time, and had initially decided on the Form 2+. But as I compared it to the claims of the Ultimaker, I changed over to the Ultimaker 2+ Extended. I had hopes of reclaiming some of the revenue I had been sending out. It wasn't a quick decision, as my small company does just enough to keep us going.

To date, I have close to 650 hours of run time on my machine and only have two models I was able to send out to customers. One of which they declined full payment on, based on the quality of the prototype. (I had so many support structures to get it to print that it was impossible to clean off well) Some of the print time is now generated from things I have printed for myself around the house and such.

I design complex models that almost always require lots of support structures, and the idea of printing them in the same material has proven to be extremely time consuming and my customers would be better off going back to the prototyping houses than paying me for all the time I have to put into cleaning off the prototypes I make.

I have resigned my machine to a toy and gadget maker that just can't do what I had hoped. I would never recommend this machine to anyone who wants it for more than simple, no overhang type of prints. No way could you ever use it in a business atmosphere and make any money with it, unless you were strictly making items that need zero support structure all the time. Sure you could break your design up into several pieces and glue them together. (Well, only sometimes can you do that, as I found out) But then you are back to many man hours on the part and what happens when the glue fails while the customer is messing with it?

LePaul,

        Thank you for the more personal look into the people of Ultimaker. We don't always get that perspective and it's nice to have.

                 That being said, unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that I have a very expensive machine sitting here that can't do what I thought it was supposed to be able to do and they have the one that will. But I can't do anything about it because I spent all my money on this one.

 

We run a 3D design/printing company and our bread & butter are our Ultimaker's. I have no idea why you are having such an issue with yours/your customers. We have printed from sample toys to full on 5 feet long high quality models and everything in between. Yes sometimes you need to cut and weld parts and even paint them after doing some cleaning up/sanding. It's still MUCH cheaper than traditional rapid-prototyping or even small runs which are usually very expensive.

Yes supports are a pain, but 9/10 times can be worked around/with. Sometimes it means you have to put extra work into getting a high quality finished product. This new printer eliminates that, which is why we already pre-ordered one to test it.

Also, we originally replaced a $25,000 printer with a Ultimaker 2+ and received the exact same results (Since then we sold that expensive printer and bought 6x Ulti's). Sure our stratasys can print in higher quality and in full color and support is never an issue... but that's a whole different price tag (and the finish products are much more expensive too!).

Like in everything, how much work you put into it will yield higher quality results. Also a pro-tip, your 3d printer is just a small part of your ecosystem at work. Softwares are much more expensive and some are pretty damn difficult to master.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

ivan-lipunov, it's not like engineers "don't take 3D printing technology features into account". That's a quite common misjudgement, bytheway, but I guess it's necessary part of the Makers' "underdog mentality" of being "revolutionaries, ahead of the industry". Just last week I was reading this article, and I was surprised to find out that the author is in fact an engineer himself. I don't even understand the headline, since "the industry" were in fact the pioneer users of 3D printing technology (who else would have had the money to pay for its development?), and I can't confirm any of his "7 reasons". Even today, the main reason against 3D-printed parts in a mass-produced product is "part price", that's it. The applications where a printed part (no matter which material) would be "better suited" are and will remain quite limited to where's lots of money involved and low build quantity (i.e. Aerospace, motorsports, tools). While Your new car might not contain any 3D-printed part, the tools to build it do.

Before You hang me from a tree, let me explain what fascinates me about "affordable rapid-technologies" and the "maker idea" in general: Firstofall, it will lead to a "democratization of manufacture possibilities". It is no longer necessary to have huge amounts of money to do anything, and it's no longer necessary to build a crazy large numer of parts to reach "return-on-investment". Rapid technologies will break the industry's "hegemony". Second, after we experienced "globalization", it will lead to what could be called "re-localization". It will be no longer necessary to move pre-products and products all around the globe. Mankind wastes way too many resources to ship stuff all around the globe. Anyway, I'm way off-topic now...

If You design a part especially for a 3D printer, You can "take features into account). But any serious prototype part for a mass-produced product, no matter in which way it will be produced later-on, has to be 100% identical to the final mass-produced part. Otherwise it would be nothing but useless "bling".

This is not limited to 3D printed parts: If You design an engine casing explicitly for CNC machining, it looks quite different than the same engine casing designed for casting. But if You want to CNC a prototype of the cast engine casing, You even add the 1° tooling angle to each "vertical" surface and include all those tiny edge radiuses everywhere, which often requires stupidly small mill cutters (sometimes even EDM). This easily triples the price, compared to a slightly simplified part. But in most cases You won't do that, because You wouldn't experience the very same haptics, stiffness, force and heat distribution, water flow, and so on.

As for the cylinder head I mentioned, doing a 3D print of its mold would be a very simple thing for any 3D printer. Molds follow a rather simple logic (well, it's not that simple) that makes it easy to print because printer-optimized parts follow a rather similar logic. But the actual cast part is the negative to these "simple" molds, and quite often very complicated. And printing one such part without dedicated support material is accordingly complicated, too, if You want to achieve a high quality (after all, such prints are often dedicated for presenting a project to managers).

I don't understand Your comment about a "Thingyverse engine", but foehnsturm's link to that cylinder head on GrabCAD leads to a Honda cylinder head that was scanned, reverse-engineered (re-designed according to the scan), and then rendered. One can easily tell that this is a rendered picture, not the scan, because a lot of surfaces show the wrong texture (i.e. drilled holes and threads showing a "cast" surface), and many of the mold's separation lines are missing.

If You are interestd to see a real scan, I could upload a screenshot of a motorcycle cylinder that was scanned with a high-end GOM system, where the operator went crazy and did 700 "shots" (he was bored in-between two projects). In comparison, I could show a screenshot of a Yamaha engine that was scanned with a rather cheap (14.000€) Artec Eva system, just to point out why some companies are willing to invest "the extra 250.000 bucks".

foehnsturm, I would love to let You try printing the cylinder head I developed, but I am not allowed to share any info or data (I'm a freelancer, I'm restricted by NDAs). But the cylinder head in the link You posted is quite comparable.

luisito, I have learned about the David-HP deal just yesterday... I guess it's a good deal for David.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Like they say nowadays "it's in the making". :)

Intend to print it on the UM2 tool changer and the UM3. But it's a long print, so be patient.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

@rasputin I'll just leave this link here. Printed on a ordinary Prusa I3. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:713815 Other works of the author also make the jaw fall to the floor. And Yes, I personally have never predicted that FDM printers will be used in mass production. It is a good tool for small series and prototyping with its well known limitations.

A little offtopic too.

As for the "liberalization of production", then I sincerely think this is the level of "the dance marathon on the Titanic" given the news about the global decline of transportation for many quarters. Both marine and rail. What about using 3D printing in the aerospace field or in the field of oil production, then I can only laugh out loud. For the properties of the metal used there, it is impossible to obtain the printer in any way at all. This "pulling little owl on the globe".

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)
For the properties of the metal used there, it is impossible to obtain the printer in any way at all.

There's a new material called "Scalmalloy", invented by Airbus (they then founded a separate company to make it available to the public). It has pretty much the same mechanical properties as Al7075 (on their website they compare it to titanium, which is stupid Marketing blahzay). I had a part printed there 6 months ago, it's beautiful, even the price tag is OK (twice the price of printing the rather low-tech AlSi10Mg material).

r

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

For the properties of the metal used there, it is impossible to obtain the printer in any way at all.

There's a new material called "Scalmalloy", invented by Airbus (they then founded a separate company to make it available to the public). It has pretty much the same mechanical properties as Al7075 (on their website they compare it to titanium, which is stupid Marketing blahzay). I had a part printed there 6 months ago, it's beautiful, even the price tag is OK (twice the price of printing the rather low-tech AlSi10Mg material).

r

 

Too bad we don't have anything that strong for FFF/FDM yet......

What would you say is the strongest filament right now? PC Max?

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Hi guys, wow, that was quite a read. I just landed and made it back home and I am now busy going through all the posts on the forums. Happy to read most of you are excited to see and try out the new Ultimaker 3. I have been able to use it a couple of times already, and it is just a pleasure to see it work.

I'm sorry to hear there are also a few users who had different expectations from the announcement. Hopefully by sharing all of our experiences we can all eventually reach a mutual understanding why we are all here at this point today.

It seems there is also quite a lengthy conversation going on about the feasibility of owning an Ultimaker. For some, it works out better than others. I guess it depends on what it is you are making exactly, what your expectations are and onto what level you take 'design for 3D printing' into account. Just like any other manufacturing method, it has its guidelines which should be taken into account. Which does not mean it is only half of a solution or something, you just have to abide by some rules in order to benefit from its fruits.

Another returning topic is the old promise of installing a dual extrusion add-on on the Ultimaker 2. I think it has been fairly clear why we did not pursue this. But allow me to explain again. The result would have been a product which was either too complex for most users to install with satisfying results, or an add-on so expensive it would be unreasonable to release. We totally understand, that the other side of the coin, breaking a promise, is in no way a 'good solution'. But releasing an add-on under the just mentioned circumstances would have been even worse. Your user experience and satisfaction matters to us. Greatly. And building a good product is one way to get there.

We have chosen to keep the Ultimaker 3 recognizable as an Ultimaker 3D printer, as it stands for reliability and a workhorse. But do not be fooled, it is completely different on the inside. Transporting the printhead with all corresponding features to an Ultimaker 2+ would be equally unrealistic as why we did move forward with our initial developments.

For those who are interested and don't mind getting there hands 'dirty' (I have read a few people say; 'we will make it work') there are users who live by that same philosophy, like @Foehnsturm. A very good alternative I think. Maybe it is inspirational?

If you have any further questions about this, or the Ultimaker 3 in general, or when you just got an Ultimaker 2+, feel free to reach out to me! We have and will always try to look for a mutual and reasonable solution :)

Thank you for your time reading this. And just like half of the other posts I have read.. it turned out a little bit longer than I initially planned ;)

Edited by Guest
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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I really would like to see a UM3 in action......

Thinking about paying my local reseller a visit to see if they have one on display :)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)
What would you say is the strongest filament right now? PC Max?

You're asking the wrong person. All I ever printed myself is PLA, because it's simple to print, and fuel-resistant. The market is moving so fast, and I spend little time on checking the news... but I have seen that there's PEEK filament available by now.

 

For those who are interested and don't mind getting there hands 'dirty' (I have read a few people say; 'we will make it work') there is a very good alternative available by @Foehnsturm.

IF there would be a tried&proven solution for a dual extruder UM2(+) kit, would there ever be a general (!!!) chance that it received "official" status? Using the foehnsturm solution as an axample, would there be a chance that one day I could download a new Cura version, update my UM2 firmware through Cura, and choose "UM2 foehnsturm" in Cura?

As I and others have noted, for some people the printer is only a tool, for some there's no point in having a dual extruder solution where one needs to install a hacked firmware, or face problems when any new software might shut down a necessary feature, or modify gcode.

I was one of the people offering to "put in work", but that would be limited to mechanical design and development. Afterwards all I'd want to be is a "stupid plug&play user"...

r

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

IF there would be a tried&proven solution for a dual extruder UM2(+) kit, would there ever be a general (!!!) chance that it received "official" status? Using the foehnsturm solution as an axample, would there be a chance that one day I could download a new Cura version, update my UM2 firmware through Cura, and choose "UM2 foehnsturm" in Cura?

 

Ultimaker official? I don't think so. Adding it to Cura? Most likely. I hereby promise to help getting it in Cura once the time is there.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Well I already use Cura 2.3 and choose our "UM2 tool changer" profile in Cura that's all.

However not sure about the firmware download. Newer Cura releases were quite restrictive there. To download our enhanced (Tinker-powered) firmware I use an old Cura release.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

However not sure about the firmware download. Newer Cura releases were quite restrictive there. To download our enhanced (Tinker-powered) firmware I use an old Cura release.

 

That's not longer necessary. Cura 2.3 can upload custom firmware files. It works flawless like before.

upload_custom_firmware.thumb.png.90069018ed1fcafac6830c72bbfd3c89.png

upload_custom_firmware.thumb.png.90069018ed1fcafac6830c72bbfd3c89.png

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Hey, does anyone else find cura 2.3's retraction limit of 45 mm/s annoying? My arai the dragon had mini spikes on its wings because of stringing.

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